7 ms·

i'd rather not pay for other people's benefits unless the benefit returns to me with reasonable probability and period of time. on one hand i'd like to see libr

by mickey7 15y ago

i'd rather not pay for other people's benefits unless the benefit returns to me with reasonable probability and period of time. on one hand i'd like to see libraries turn profit (like 'lite' version of video rental model) or at least be self sufficient. on the other hand i want to enjoy reasonably educated population with easy access to methods for self improvement and economic mobility (both up and down) and a 'safety net' in case of uninsured unforeseen events. there's a balance between socialism and pure libertarian model but its so local and complicated and constantly evolving that i just resign myself toward the purest liberty and self responsibility and say fuck the libraries.

TeMPOraL 15y ago
> i'd rather not pay for other people's benefits unless the benefit returns to me with reasonable probability and period of time Then pay for the warm, fuzzy feeling you'll get for doing something that benefits others.
- mickey7 15y ago
  yes. i think the warm fuzzy feeling is how the body internally represents the vague and unspecific expectation of 'social' reward from doing something that benefits others the sense of something being a 'good deed' comes from expecting harmony and general social cooperation (reciprocity) and since the cause effect is so disconnected and complex - it's too difficult to grasp with reason (for some people) and just has to be felt in this way. (?) also the neurological 'mirroring' and empathy .. anyways. people who want and use the library should pay for it. people who don't should not pay. isn't this fair?
  - gergles 15y ago
    >.. anyways. people who want and use the library should pay for it. people who don't should not pay. isn't this fair? People who want and use the roads should pay for them. People who don't shouldn't be allowed to drive or walk anywhere. Isn't that fair? People who want and use the police department should pay for it. People who don't should have no protection. Isn't that fair? People who want and use the fire department should pay for it. People who don't should have to stand by and watch their house burn to the ground. Isn't that fair?
    - mickey7 15y ago
      neighbourhood watch and locally funded andor volunteer police, vigilanteesm & personal responsibility fire insurance includes fire department service. you can go cheap and risk burning down but it's more likely that decent friendly neighbours will gladly cover yours if you can't. or you can move to more affordable housing within your means health insurance with discounts for taking care of yourself competition between doctors and between pharmaceuticals driving innovation, skills and real results forward while driving prices down. would you rather get chemo for pennies while someone else can get immortality for millions or would you rather pay millions for chemo equally with everyone else private or shared roads according to free will and common mutual interest i don't want just anyone to come in to my house as they please. or my driveway, or if my driveway is very long = my road i'm responsible for my property amd my own actions. i don't want to tell you what to do and i don't want your money. we can agree to exchange things for mutual benefit and i will do everything i can to keep to agreed terms - staking my word and reputation there is nothing wrong with public libraries or charity regardless if selfish or for common good as long as it's funded with free will instead of threat of tax prison crappy mismanaged unused library should go broke while the good library can pay for itself with fees and donations just like your startup
      - mickey7 15y ago
        i'm puzzled and somewhat amused with the downvotes because i'm aiming for maximum honesty and truth. the market organises to elevate the best and raise standards for all others - it's like a force of nature, whereas government seems to systematically mismanage libraries into mediocre grey soulless underused smelly wastelands.
        chc 15y ago
        Here's essentially the thought process behind the downvotes: You: "the market organises to elevate the best and raise standards for all others" Everybody else: "And I'm the Queen of England." "The market" is not some intelligent, charitable entity. It's an abstraction employed to talk about how participating entities allocate their resources. It categorically does not help everyone. In fact, in many cases it can hurt everyone (the most famous example is the tragedy of the commons, but that's hardly the only way markets can go bad). Read the OP: What is the market going to do for that guy with no money? From your comments so far, it seems like you believe he should just curl up and die in the cold. And most people don't believe that's a good answer at all.
wisty 15y ago
When I was <18, most of the books I read were from libraries. My parents aren't poor, by any measure, but they don't believe in paying for a lump of dead tree you only read once. Books can inspire. They help you improve your literacy. Local libraries are pretty cheap. Programs to give books to poor children may not be as cost effective. Giving computers to poor children may simply result in them being sold, either by the kids or their parents. Commercial libraries (proprietary libraries) have existed. They typically catered to the kind of people who paid a lot for membership - upper middle class professionals. If we relied on commercial public libraries today, they would be stacked with O'Reilly's books, Tolkien, popular economics, management books, and the like.
- smsm42 15y ago
  I wouldn't mind having a paid membership in a library that carries O'Reilly's books and like. I would also probably try to convince my company to have one (and that would mean much bigger budget there). Most of such books are needed only for a relatively short periods of time and then sit there gathering dust for years. The library would be ideal for such things. I don't say this would necessarily work, there are many problems with this idea that would need to be resolved, but on the face of it I don't see why it couldn't work.
- literalusername 15y ago
  Private libraries exist today. The Mechanics' Institute is an example. My impression is they have a diverse collection, though I don't know for sure. http://www.milibrary.org/ http://www.milibrary.org/
CWuestefeld 15y ago
This doesn't deserve downvotes. Mickey7 has described (albeit without capital letters) a common viewpoint, one that deserves to be considered when discussing this issue. The upvote/downvote system is not intended to be a popularity contest, it's intended to indicate whether the post contributes to the conversation. Even if you find Mickey7's viewpoint abhorrent, you ought to be giving him a +1 to recognize that it's a relevant perspective -- even if that's just so that you can reply and show why this perspective is flawed.

by mickey7 15y ago

TeMPOraL 15y ago

> i'd rather not pay for other people's benefits unless the benefit returns to me with reasonable probability and period of time Then pay for the warm, fuzzy feeling you'll get for doing something that benefits others.

mickey7 15y ago
yes. i think the warm fuzzy feeling is how the body internally represents the vague and unspecific expectation of 'social' reward from doing something that benefits others the sense of something being a 'good deed' comes from expecting harmony and general social cooperation (reciprocity) and since the cause effect is so disconnected and complex - it's too difficult to grasp with reason (for some people) and just has to be felt in this way. (?) also the neurological 'mirroring' and empathy .. anyways. people who want and use the library should pay for it. people who don't should not pay. isn't this fair?
- gergles 15y ago
  >.. anyways. people who want and use the library should pay for it. people who don't should not pay. isn't this fair? People who want and use the roads should pay for them. People who don't shouldn't be allowed to drive or walk anywhere. Isn't that fair? People who want and use the police department should pay for it. People who don't should have no protection. Isn't that fair? People who want and use the fire department should pay for it. People who don't should have to stand by and watch their house burn to the ground. Isn't that fair?
  - mickey7 15y ago
    neighbourhood watch and locally funded andor volunteer police, vigilanteesm & personal responsibility fire insurance includes fire department service. you can go cheap and risk burning down but it's more likely that decent friendly neighbours will gladly cover yours if you can't. or you can move to more affordable housing within your means health insurance with discounts for taking care of yourself competition between doctors and between pharmaceuticals driving innovation, skills and real results forward while driving prices down. would you rather get chemo for pennies while someone else can get immortality for millions or would you rather pay millions for chemo equally with everyone else private or shared roads according to free will and common mutual interest i don't want just anyone to come in to my house as they please. or my driveway, or if my driveway is very long = my road i'm responsible for my property amd my own actions. i don't want to tell you what to do and i don't want your money. we can agree to exchange things for mutual benefit and i will do everything i can to keep to agreed terms - staking my word and reputation there is nothing wrong with public libraries or charity regardless if selfish or for common good as long as it's funded with free will instead of threat of tax prison crappy mismanaged unused library should go broke while the good library can pay for itself with fees and donations just like your startup
    - mickey7 15y ago
      i'm puzzled and somewhat amused with the downvotes because i'm aiming for maximum honesty and truth. the market organises to elevate the best and raise standards for all others - it's like a force of nature, whereas government seems to systematically mismanage libraries into mediocre grey soulless underused smelly wastelands.
      - chc 15y ago
        Here's essentially the thought process behind the downvotes: You: "the market organises to elevate the best and raise standards for all others" Everybody else: "And I'm the Queen of England." "The market" is not some intelligent, charitable entity. It's an abstraction employed to talk about how participating entities allocate their resources. It categorically does not help everyone. In fact, in many cases it can hurt everyone (the most famous example is the tragedy of the commons, but that's hardly the only way markets can go bad). Read the OP: What is the market going to do for that guy with no money? From your comments so far, it seems like you believe he should just curl up and die in the cold. And most people don't believe that's a good answer at all.

wisty 15y ago

When I was <18, most of the books I read were from libraries. My parents aren't poor, by any measure, but they don't believe in paying for a lump of dead tree you only read once. Books can inspire. They help you improve your literacy. Local libraries are pretty cheap. Programs to give books to poor children may not be as cost effective. Giving computers to poor children may simply result in them being sold, either by the kids or their parents. Commercial libraries (proprietary libraries) have existed. They typically catered to the kind of people who paid a lot for membership - upper middle class professionals. If we relied on commercial public libraries today, they would be stacked with O'Reilly's books, Tolkien, popular economics, management books, and the like.

smsm42 15y ago
I wouldn't mind having a paid membership in a library that carries O'Reilly's books and like. I would also probably try to convince my company to have one (and that would mean much bigger budget there). Most of such books are needed only for a relatively short periods of time and then sit there gathering dust for years. The library would be ideal for such things. I don't say this would necessarily work, there are many problems with this idea that would need to be resolved, but on the face of it I don't see why it couldn't work.
literalusername 15y ago
Private libraries exist today. The Mechanics' Institute is an example. My impression is they have a diverse collection, though I don't know for sure. http://www.milibrary.org/ http://www.milibrary.org/

CWuestefeld 15y ago

This doesn't deserve downvotes. Mickey7 has described (albeit without capital letters) a common viewpoint, one that deserves to be considered when discussing this issue. The upvote/downvote system is not intended to be a popularity contest, it's intended to indicate whether the post contributes to the conversation. Even if you find Mickey7's viewpoint abhorrent, you ought to be giving him a +1 to recognize that it's a relevant perspective -- even if that's just so that you can reply and show why this perspective is flawed.