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Being a Zionist and supporting settlers are not mutual. Being a Zionist is simply supporting a Jewish state not everything the government does.

by js212 3y ago

0xbadcafebee 3y ago
This is trying to have your cake and eat it too. Imagine "supporting the state but not everything the government does" in Germany in 1938, or South Africa in 1980.
hutzlibu 3y ago
Isn't it rather Zionists usually support the settlers, with or against the government? (and orthodox jews don't recognize the israeli government as truly legitimate anyway) Edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settler_violence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settler_violence
- reissbaker 3y ago
  Orthodox Jews by vast margins support Israel, you've been a victim of disinformation. There is a tiny sect of ultra-Orthodox that don't, but even the vast majority of the ultra-Orthodox are pro-Israel. Support for Israel amongst Jews in general is somewhere north of 90%. Zionism is simply support for a Jewish state in Israel, not necessarily for settlers. The vast majority of the center-left political groups in Israel consider themselves Zionists, while being rabidly anti-settler. For example, the left-wing protests against judicial reform in Israel used the Israeli flag as their symbol — because they're Zionists, and believe the judicial reform undermined Israel. (The right wing and religious counterprotests also used the Israeli flag as their symbol, since they're also Zionists, and believe the current judicial system is detrimental to Israel.) Even some right-wing Israeli political parties have been anti-settler while pro-Zionism, e.g. Ariel Sharon's Kadima party that forcibly evicted all settlers from Gaza at gunpoint, destroyed the settlements there, and ended Israeli occupation of Gaza (the "unilateral disengagement") in 2005.
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    "Orthodox Jews by vast margins support Israel, you've been a victim of disinformation. " Possible, there is lots of disinformation going on. My wording also might have been bad, but by my definition and understanding orthodox jews aim for a 100% jewish state. And Israel is not 100% jewish, but tries a mixture as they also have arab and beduin population with voting rights. So orthodox jews surely mostly support Israel as being mostly jewish, but they rather would support a 100% jewish Israel state.
    - reissbaker 3y ago
      "By my understanding Orthodox Jews aim for a 100% Jewish state" Most of my family is Orthodox, I was raised Orthodox, and have a pretty clear understanding of Orthodoxy's views on Israel (which is generally pro-Israel). You are confusing various ultra-Orthodox (also called "Haredi") sects, some of whom are anti-Zionist, but not for the reasons you're giving — in fact, the largest anti-Zionist Haredi sect (although "largest" here is still only ~100k globally), the Satmar, are specifically against Israel being Jewish because they view pre-Messianic Jewish states as contrary to Jewish law. The Neturei Karta, an even smaller but more extreme Haredi sect (~5k adherents globally), go so far as to politically support dismantling Israel and replacing it with an Islamic state. These are pretty niche groups within Orthodoxy, though, which is ~2MM globally; nearly all sects of which support the State of Israel.
      - hutzlibu 3y ago
        Thanks for clarifying, I definitely should have used "Ultra-Orthodox" then. The extremists are usually just the loudest and the most extreme phrases get the most media coverage with usually bad context, ... which can be summed up as missinformation, I fell for.
- KMag 3y ago
  >> Being a Zionist is simply supporting a Jewish state not everything the government does. > (and orthodox jews don't recognize the israeli government as truly legitimate anyway) Edit: a sibling comment questions the accuracy of the assertion that the majority of orthodox Jews support the Israeli state. I have no idea, so setting that point aside: Definite/indefinite articles matter. "A Jewish state" is not necessarily "The Jewish State"/"modern State of Israel". I suspect support for "a Jewish state" and modern Israel is rather correlated, but not 1.0.
  - reissbaker 3y ago
    Just like being anti-Trump doesn't mean you're anti-American, being pro-Israel doesn't mean being pro-Netanyahu (or pro whatever the government is at any specific time). I would guess that considering yourself a Zionist does actually correlate like 0.95+ with being pro-Israel, but "pro-Israel" doesn't correlate very well with specific Israeli government regimes or policies, and that many people are both pro-Israel and pro-Palestine at the same time (e.g. most two-state-solution supporting Jews). For example, Yesh Atid voters in Israel are very pro-Israel, but very anti-the-Netanyahu-government (they are the largest opposition party), and Yesh Atid explicitly supports the establishment of an independent Palestinian state.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Being a Zionist and supporting settlers are not mutual. Being a Zionist is simply supporting a Jewish state not everything the government does.

by js212 3y ago

Being a Zionist and supporting settlers are not mutual. Being a Zionist is simply supporting a Jewish state not everything the government does.

0xbadcafebee 3y ago

This is trying to have your cake and eat it too. Imagine "supporting the state but not everything the government does" in Germany in 1938, or South Africa in 1980.

hutzlibu 3y ago

Isn't it rather Zionists usually support the settlers, with or against the government? (and orthodox jews don't recognize the israeli government as truly legitimate anyway) Edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settler_violence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settler_violence

reissbaker 3y ago
Orthodox Jews by vast margins support Israel, you've been a victim of disinformation. There is a tiny sect of ultra-Orthodox that don't, but even the vast majority of the ultra-Orthodox are pro-Israel. Support for Israel amongst Jews in general is somewhere north of 90%. Zionism is simply support for a Jewish state in Israel, not necessarily for settlers. The vast majority of the center-left political groups in Israel consider themselves Zionists, while being rabidly anti-settler. For example, the left-wing protests against judicial reform in Israel used the Israeli flag as their symbol — because they're Zionists, and believe the judicial reform undermined Israel. (The right wing and religious counterprotests also used the Israeli flag as their symbol, since they're also Zionists, and believe the current judicial system is detrimental to Israel.) Even some right-wing Israeli political parties have been anti-settler while pro-Zionism, e.g. Ariel Sharon's Kadima party that forcibly evicted all settlers from Gaza at gunpoint, destroyed the settlements there, and ended Israeli occupation of Gaza (the "unilateral disengagement") in 2005.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  "Orthodox Jews by vast margins support Israel, you've been a victim of disinformation. " Possible, there is lots of disinformation going on. My wording also might have been bad, but by my definition and understanding orthodox jews aim for a 100% jewish state. And Israel is not 100% jewish, but tries a mixture as they also have arab and beduin population with voting rights. So orthodox jews surely mostly support Israel as being mostly jewish, but they rather would support a 100% jewish Israel state.
  - reissbaker 3y ago
    "By my understanding Orthodox Jews aim for a 100% Jewish state" Most of my family is Orthodox, I was raised Orthodox, and have a pretty clear understanding of Orthodoxy's views on Israel (which is generally pro-Israel). You are confusing various ultra-Orthodox (also called "Haredi") sects, some of whom are anti-Zionist, but not for the reasons you're giving — in fact, the largest anti-Zionist Haredi sect (although "largest" here is still only ~100k globally), the Satmar, are specifically against Israel being Jewish because they view pre-Messianic Jewish states as contrary to Jewish law. The Neturei Karta, an even smaller but more extreme Haredi sect (~5k adherents globally), go so far as to politically support dismantling Israel and replacing it with an Islamic state. These are pretty niche groups within Orthodoxy, though, which is ~2MM globally; nearly all sects of which support the State of Israel.
    - hutzlibu 3y ago
      Thanks for clarifying, I definitely should have used "Ultra-Orthodox" then. The extremists are usually just the loudest and the most extreme phrases get the most media coverage with usually bad context, ... which can be summed up as missinformation, I fell for.
KMag 3y ago
>> Being a Zionist is simply supporting a Jewish state not everything the government does. > (and orthodox jews don't recognize the israeli government as truly legitimate anyway) Edit: a sibling comment questions the accuracy of the assertion that the majority of orthodox Jews support the Israeli state. I have no idea, so setting that point aside: Definite/indefinite articles matter. "A Jewish state" is not necessarily "The Jewish State"/"modern State of Israel". I suspect support for "a Jewish state" and modern Israel is rather correlated, but not 1.0.
- reissbaker 3y ago
  Just like being anti-Trump doesn't mean you're anti-American, being pro-Israel doesn't mean being pro-Netanyahu (or pro whatever the government is at any specific time). I would guess that considering yourself a Zionist does actually correlate like 0.95+ with being pro-Israel, but "pro-Israel" doesn't correlate very well with specific Israeli government regimes or policies, and that many people are both pro-Israel and pro-Palestine at the same time (e.g. most two-state-solution supporting Jews). For example, Yesh Atid voters in Israel are very pro-Israel, but very anti-the-Netanyahu-government (they are the largest opposition party), and Yesh Atid explicitly supports the establishment of an independent Palestinian state.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]