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You do not believe that there are any Palestinians who might have legitimate uses for PayPal?

by Somatochlora 3y ago

hutzlibu 3y ago
But they made the misstake of being born at the wrong place.
- fnovd 3y ago
  Unlike the Russians facing issues due to the actions of their government? Do you think they are all guilty, all deserving of sanction and economic hardship? Of course not, but what's the alternative?
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    "Of course not, but what's the alternative?" Targeting only the people in charge? Targeting everyone is a good recipe of uniting them all behind the bad ones.
    - mrguyorama 3y ago
      Hamas is their democratically elected government. They have no excuse. Is there no way to leave Palestine if you don't support Hamas?
      - mschuster91 3y ago
        It's hard to call either Hamas or Fatah democratically elected - there haven't been elections since 2006, and Hamas actually ran a coup the following year to seize power after they lost in the parliamentary elections.
    - fnovd 3y ago
      OK, so your ministers are targeted, but everyday citizens are not. It's now trivial to work around sanctions and they don't matter at all. When your sanctions are symbolic, that's fine. When they're meant to actually have an economic impact, that doesn't work. There's an argument for fomenting dissent against the government causing the sanctions, too. If there were good, easy solutions, it wouldn't be the conflict that it is.
      - hutzlibu 3y ago
        "It's now trivial to work around sanctions and they don't matter at all." Putin did not dare to travel to south africa. The Oligarchs cannot use their Yachts anymore and their international assets are frozen(and they are not happy about it). That sounds like pretty effective targeted sanctions to me.
        the_only_law 3y ago
        I thought the point of sanctions was to discourage whatever behavior caused the sanction to be implemented in the first place.
        hutzlibu 3y ago
        No one claimed that sanctions alone will stop the war. And ALL of the russians are under sanctions since 2014 btw. and that clearly did not prevented the big war, or made Putin less powerful. So if anything, this refutes that sanctions against a whole population are helping.
        fnovd 3y ago
        No, it doesn't, because you don't know what the world would have looked like if there were no sanctions. If the impact of the sanctions delayed the war or forced Russia to go in with fewer supplies then the sanctions absolutely had a measurable impact. Just because Putin has strong authority now doesn't mean he wouldn't have been stronger without sanctions. Your arguments have no basis in reality.
        hutzlibu 3y ago
        "If the impact of the sanctions delayed the war or forced Russia to go in with fewer supplies then the sanctions absolutely had a measurable impact." If is key here. You claim there is no alternative to broad sanctions, yet they have been shown to not work (preventing war). And that they delayed the war, you show no proof or indications. If Putins plan was all out war from the beginning, then why would he have waited at all? And sanctions targeting special military supplies are a different thing from sanctioning the civilian population. So what exactly is your argument based in reality?
redditwhat 3y ago
Even if there are some who would benefit from this (and they have plenty of others methods), should we make it easier for terrorists to transfer money through Paypal?
- lesuorac 3y ago
  Literally do a web search for any first world country and domestic terrorism and you'll find an instance of it. The argument you have made also implies that USA should be disconnected from PayPal.
  - redditwhat 3y ago
    Is it really domestic when the effective governing body in Gaza and some of the West Bank is Hamas? Should we not sanction countries ruled by terrorist organizations?
    - xnyan 3y ago
      I'm fine with that as long as the definition of terrorism is objective and not ideological/political. What objective definition of state terrorism applies to Palestine but not the state of Israel?
      - mschuster91 3y ago
        Hamas keeps sending Qassam and other rockets towards Israel, indiscriminately targeting everything while using human shields to defend launch and command sites in a clear violation of international law. On top of that come suicide bombers targeting civilians, which is clearly and indisputably terrorism, and on top of that they pay off the families of martyrs and terrorists, thereby creating a massive financial incentive. Israel isn't free from blame - particularly the actions of Ben Gvir and friends or the expansions of settlement activity are reprehensible and completely unnecessary provocations - but nothing they do is even remotely as bad as what comes out of Palestine.
        3y ago

You do not believe that there are any Palestinians who might have legitimate uses for PayPal?

hutzlibu 3y ago

But they made the misstake of being born at the wrong place.

fnovd 3y ago
Unlike the Russians facing issues due to the actions of their government? Do you think they are all guilty, all deserving of sanction and economic hardship? Of course not, but what's the alternative?
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  "Of course not, but what's the alternative?" Targeting only the people in charge? Targeting everyone is a good recipe of uniting them all behind the bad ones.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    Hamas is their democratically elected government. They have no excuse. Is there no way to leave Palestine if you don't support Hamas?
    - mschuster91 3y ago
      It's hard to call either Hamas or Fatah democratically elected - there haven't been elections since 2006, and Hamas actually ran a coup the following year to seize power after they lost in the parliamentary elections.
  - fnovd 3y ago
    OK, so your ministers are targeted, but everyday citizens are not. It's now trivial to work around sanctions and they don't matter at all. When your sanctions are symbolic, that's fine. When they're meant to actually have an economic impact, that doesn't work. There's an argument for fomenting dissent against the government causing the sanctions, too. If there were good, easy solutions, it wouldn't be the conflict that it is.
    - hutzlibu 3y ago
      "It's now trivial to work around sanctions and they don't matter at all." Putin did not dare to travel to south africa. The Oligarchs cannot use their Yachts anymore and their international assets are frozen(and they are not happy about it). That sounds like pretty effective targeted sanctions to me.
      - the_only_law 3y ago
        I thought the point of sanctions was to discourage whatever behavior caused the sanction to be implemented in the first place.
        hutzlibu 3y ago
        No one claimed that sanctions alone will stop the war. And ALL of the russians are under sanctions since 2014 btw. and that clearly did not prevented the big war, or made Putin less powerful. So if anything, this refutes that sanctions against a whole population are helping.
        fnovd 3y ago
        No, it doesn't, because you don't know what the world would have looked like if there were no sanctions. If the impact of the sanctions delayed the war or forced Russia to go in with fewer supplies then the sanctions absolutely had a measurable impact. Just because Putin has strong authority now doesn't mean he wouldn't have been stronger without sanctions. Your arguments have no basis in reality.
        hutzlibu 3y ago
        "If the impact of the sanctions delayed the war or forced Russia to go in with fewer supplies then the sanctions absolutely had a measurable impact." If is key here. You claim there is no alternative to broad sanctions, yet they have been shown to not work (preventing war). And that they delayed the war, you show no proof or indications. If Putins plan was all out war from the beginning, then why would he have waited at all? And sanctions targeting special military supplies are a different thing from sanctioning the civilian population. So what exactly is your argument based in reality?

redditwhat 3y ago

Even if there are some who would benefit from this (and they have plenty of others methods), should we make it easier for terrorists to transfer money through Paypal?

lesuorac 3y ago
Literally do a web search for any first world country and domestic terrorism and you'll find an instance of it. The argument you have made also implies that USA should be disconnected from PayPal.
- redditwhat 3y ago
  Is it really domestic when the effective governing body in Gaza and some of the West Bank is Hamas? Should we not sanction countries ruled by terrorist organizations?
  - xnyan 3y ago
    I'm fine with that as long as the definition of terrorism is objective and not ideological/political. What objective definition of state terrorism applies to Palestine but not the state of Israel?
    - mschuster91 3y ago
      Hamas keeps sending Qassam and other rockets towards Israel, indiscriminately targeting everything while using human shields to defend launch and command sites in a clear violation of international law. On top of that come suicide bombers targeting civilians, which is clearly and indisputably terrorism, and on top of that they pay off the families of martyrs and terrorists, thereby creating a massive financial incentive. Israel isn't free from blame - particularly the actions of Ben Gvir and friends or the expansions of settlement activity are reprehensible and completely unnecessary provocations - but nothing they do is even remotely as bad as what comes out of Palestine.
      - 3y ago