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Returning back to the OT of surveillance and oversight, and as you're making this into a partisan issue, what would Labour do differently? "Authoritarian" conc

Returning back to the OT of surveillance and oversight, and as you're making this into a partisan issue, what would Labour do differently? "Authoritarian" concerns were expressed last time Labour was in government [1], and they're "seriously considering" resurrecting their policy of mandatory id cards if they get in power again [2]. And, before I get smeared as a "Tory"/"Brexiteer", I am not - I'm someone who remembers what happened last time Labour was in power and see neither party offers an alternative to increasing surveillance in the UK. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/apr/24/comment.labour https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/apr/24/commen... [2] https://labourlist.org/2022/11/mandatory-id-card-policy-should-certainly-be-on-the-table-labour-says/ https://labourlist.org/2022/11/mandatory-id-card-policy-shou...

ChrisKnott 3y ago
Lots of EU countries have ID cards, this is not something enabled by Brexit. I don't really get the dystopian angle to it either. Do countries with ID cards see them as authoritarian?
- Nextgrid 3y ago
  The UK's aversion to ID cards is weird as they are perfectly happy with HMRC having a database entry for them for example, so the government already has a record of everyone.
  - lstodd 3y ago
    Those are two different things. HMRC may have numbers, but you're not required to get them tattooed on your arm. Which is the ID card scheme in fact is.
    - Nextgrid 3y ago
      How is having an ID card a requirement to tattoo a number on your arm? Nobody is advocating for mandatory "ID please" checkpoints everywhere, merely providing a standardized way to pass through existing checkpoints (AML/KYC in the bank, etc).
      - Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago
        We had a trial run of "papers please" just a couple of years ago. You were forbidden from traveling more than 1km from your house lest you get fined 1500 euros.
      - brigandish 3y ago
        > Nobody is advocating for mandatory "ID please" checkpoints everywhere Why would anyone who wanted mandatory "ID please" checkpoints advocate for them before introducing ID cards when: a) it makes no sense to advocate for them prior, there’s a natural sequence of dependencies. b) it would hinder the introduction of ID cards and hence, mandatory "ID please" checkpoints.
        pjc50 3y ago
        > a) it makes no sense to advocate for them prior, there’s a natural sequence of dependencies. We had that back when the government made it mandatory to have ID to be employed or have a bank account or rent a house. Not having an ID scheme didn't prevent it being made a requirement.
        brigandish 3y ago
        Then what is the need for an ID card?
    - pjc50 3y ago
      It's not an arm tattoo, it's an ID card. The sad thing is that the UK has inflicted all the negative aspects of ID requirements on people without the consolation prize of a universal free ID. If you have a job, rent a house, or have a bank account in the UK, you must have a government ID at the moment. Because people wanted that requirement barrier built so it could be used against immigrants.
      - brigandish 3y ago
        If you’re required to have it on you at all times outside of your own property then it is effectively no different to an arm tattoo.
        pbhjpbhj 3y ago
        You would not though, so it's not. You might as well say we should not have police because if they're required to beat you up if they saw you commit a crime then that would be bad. It would, but they're not, and it's the people who would intend that who you should oppose.
        leadingthenet 3y ago
        > You would not though In several European countries, you absolutely do.
        brigandish 3y ago
        It's sad that you have to post that comment. Should it surprise me that advocates of this do not know how ID cards are actually implemented, even in countries nearby?
tailspin2019 3y ago
> as you're making this into a partisan issue Criticising the current PM doesn't automatically make it a partisan issue IMHO. Personally I don't actually care what party they're in. I care how {badly} the {party who are currently in power} are running the country. > neither party offers an alternative to increasing surveillance in the UK I agree. They're all worthy of criticsm at the moment. And particularly the ones currently in power.
- dewclin 3y ago
  > Criticising the current PM doesn't automatically make it a partisan issue IMHO. In hindsight I was wrong to say that; it was a bad choice of words. I agree with you. Thanks.
i2cmaster 3y ago
[flagged]
captainbland 3y ago
Authoritarianism is very much so bi-partisan in UK politics. That said I do think the Tories have taken it to the n-th degree recently, though. It's unlikely that Labour would introduce new bills that are quite as heavy handed as the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 but I imagine they're unlikely to unwind what is currently there now.

ChrisKnott 3y ago

Lots of EU countries have ID cards, this is not something enabled by Brexit. I don't really get the dystopian angle to it either. Do countries with ID cards see them as authoritarian?

Nextgrid 3y ago
The UK's aversion to ID cards is weird as they are perfectly happy with HMRC having a database entry for them for example, so the government already has a record of everyone.
- lstodd 3y ago
  Those are two different things. HMRC may have numbers, but you're not required to get them tattooed on your arm. Which is the ID card scheme in fact is.
  - Nextgrid 3y ago
    How is having an ID card a requirement to tattoo a number on your arm? Nobody is advocating for mandatory "ID please" checkpoints everywhere, merely providing a standardized way to pass through existing checkpoints (AML/KYC in the bank, etc).
    - Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago
      We had a trial run of "papers please" just a couple of years ago. You were forbidden from traveling more than 1km from your house lest you get fined 1500 euros.
    - brigandish 3y ago
      > Nobody is advocating for mandatory "ID please" checkpoints everywhere Why would anyone who wanted mandatory "ID please" checkpoints advocate for them before introducing ID cards when: a) it makes no sense to advocate for them prior, there’s a natural sequence of dependencies. b) it would hinder the introduction of ID cards and hence, mandatory "ID please" checkpoints.
      - pjc50 3y ago
        > a) it makes no sense to advocate for them prior, there’s a natural sequence of dependencies. We had that back when the government made it mandatory to have ID to be employed or have a bank account or rent a house. Not having an ID scheme didn't prevent it being made a requirement.
        brigandish 3y ago
        Then what is the need for an ID card?
  - pjc50 3y ago
    It's not an arm tattoo, it's an ID card. The sad thing is that the UK has inflicted all the negative aspects of ID requirements on people without the consolation prize of a universal free ID. If you have a job, rent a house, or have a bank account in the UK, you must have a government ID at the moment. Because people wanted that requirement barrier built so it could be used against immigrants.
    - brigandish 3y ago
      If you’re required to have it on you at all times outside of your own property then it is effectively no different to an arm tattoo.
      - pbhjpbhj 3y ago
        You would not though, so it's not. You might as well say we should not have police because if they're required to beat you up if they saw you commit a crime then that would be bad. It would, but they're not, and it's the people who would intend that who you should oppose.
        leadingthenet 3y ago
        > You would not though In several European countries, you absolutely do.
        brigandish 3y ago
        It's sad that you have to post that comment. Should it surprise me that advocates of this do not know how ID cards are actually implemented, even in countries nearby?

tailspin2019 3y ago

> as you're making this into a partisan issue Criticising the current PM doesn't automatically make it a partisan issue IMHO. Personally I don't actually care what party they're in. I care how {badly} the {party who are currently in power} are running the country. > neither party offers an alternative to increasing surveillance in the UK I agree. They're all worthy of criticsm at the moment. And particularly the ones currently in power.

dewclin 3y ago
> Criticising the current PM doesn't automatically make it a partisan issue IMHO. In hindsight I was wrong to say that; it was a bad choice of words. I agree with you. Thanks.

i2cmaster 3y ago

[flagged]

captainbland 3y ago

Authoritarianism is very much so bi-partisan in UK politics. That said I do think the Tories have taken it to the n-th degree recently, though. It's unlikely that Labour would introduce new bills that are quite as heavy handed as the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 but I imagine they're unlikely to unwind what is currently there now.