5 ms·

A roundabout way of turning on a light. See the explanation b4 reading

14 points by JerusaEnt 15y ago

In Judaism, you are not allowed to use electricity on Saturday. So this company made a light switch that according to them (and granted, many others) IS allowed to be used on Saturday. So I thought HN would like the way it works to try to get around things.<p>If your interested in seeing why this is allowed on Saturday as opposed to a normal light, if you go to Halacha>>Halacha: overview, it goes through it

kichuku88 15y ago
Hi. I am not Jewish (I am in a country with hardly any Jews) and I do not know what relation there is to electrical switched to a religious day. Sorry for being ignorant. But can you please explain in simple words what is need for this for Jews?
- neilk 15y ago
  There are religious proscriptions against doing work on the Sabbath (for Jews, beginning Friday at sundown and lasting until Saturday evening). These include lighting a fire. Some religious authorities believe that completing an electric light is the modern equivalent. Thus, there is an entire industry of elaborate contraptions to allow the observant Orthodox Jew all of the convenience with none of the covenant-breaking. Like this switch, which doesn't create an electric circuit; it blocks an intermittent light pulse which has some possibility of not even doing anything. Allegedly this is more acceptable to the Almighty. Perhaps because the Torah lacks an anti-circumvention clause.
- MiguelHudnandez 15y ago
  As far as I understand it, some orthodox jews are not permitted to do any "work" on the sabbath. Some factions believe that flicking a light switch is "work," or that pressing a button is "work." So some enterprising fellows have been creating ingenious inventions to allow observant orthodox jews to live comfortably while still not technically violating their rules. It all seems pretty silly to me, but you have to admit, it is indeed hacking and I think the devices are clever. One specific example is an elevator, which has a sabbath mode. On the sabbath, it will stop and open its doors at every floor, over and over, so that an observant rider can simply walk on, and walk off at their desired floor, without the perceived sin of pressing the button for their floor.
  - howardr 15y ago
    One of my friends said that his grandparents would light their stove before sundown on friday and leave it lit until sundown Saturday so they would not break kosher laws I have also heard that a lot of devices have kosher mode. E.g. refrigerators lights not coming on and power randomly going in and out much like this swith
    - _delirium 15y ago
      The random-refrigerator-compressor one is something I read about recently and would never have occurred to me. The reasoning is that in a normal setup, the compressor's operation is driven by internal temperature, which is impacted by opening/closing the door, so opening/closing the door is indirectly "operating" an electric motor, the compressor. To avoid that, in Sabbath mode the compressor runs on a non-thermostat-based schedule, so its operation is not being directed by any human activity. Some electric ovens and stoves also have a Sabbath mode that lets them stay on all day; in the normal mode most have an auto-shutoff after 12 hours, under the assumption that an oven left on for more than 12 hours was probably an accident.
  - JerusaEnt 15y ago
    Another "hack" us Jews use very often is a timer. We have a timer hooked up to an outlet, and plug things into the timer, so you can set certain times to allow the electricity through, and other times not to.
    - corin_ 15y ago
      It seems to me that "hacks" like these are just missing the point - though I'm an atheist, so maybe I'm just missing the point. If the logic is that God didn't want a fire lit, surely that is because he didn't want the fire, not that he didn't want someone lighting it. Isn't it all a little bit like a scaled down, less immoral, version of saying "No, I didn't kill him, I just pushed him into the ocean - blame the water"?
      - JerusaEnt 15y ago
notphilatall 15y ago
Quick explanation: In orthodox judaism, one is not supposed to operate a light-switch on the Sabbath. I'm not jewish, but some of my friends are observant (but progressive) and use the Sabbath as a day of reflection. This seems to completely go against the spirit of the rule (to spend a day living simply with friends and family, without technology for maximum reflection, introspection, and rest). I don't see how this gadget would catch on -- unless someone is bound is follow the rule to the letter, but doesn't really want to (but then at that point, they should just stop adhering IMHO)
- JerusaEnt 15y ago
  I am Jewish. So I can tell you that you are 100% right. I don't think this is really going to catch on for that very reason. Sabbath is a day set aside for family, religion, and not working. I think what the main use is going to be is people will install it for emergencies. So I'm sure in Israel a lot of people will put it in their bomb shelters so if they need to spend Sabbath in the shelter and need to use the light, it won't be directly going against Sabbath.
  - emmelaich 15y ago
    > will install it for emergencies Surely use in emergencies is allowed already. (I am not Jewish, but I heard an Oy Vey once)
    - JerusaEnt 15y ago
      That is true. If any ones life is in danger, your supposed to "forget" the Sabbath right away and do what's necessary. But, for example, if your wife is very very pregnant and can give birth over Sabbath, if she goes into labour on Sabbath, 100% you HAVE to driver her to the hospital. But it's better if before Sabbath you order a taxi.
D_Alex 15y ago
Poe's Law - an axiom suggesting that it's difficult to distinguish between parodies of religious fundamentalism and its genuine proponents, since they both seem equally insane - seems to apply here.
earl 15y ago
Here's another article about jewish appliances in general [1] with more detail about the restrictions. Essentially, jewish law differentiates between direct and indirect responses to actions. And I can verify you'll occasionally see this stuff on the UES, and a little more often in the Hasidic bits of Brooklyn. Sabbath law prohibits Jews from performing actions that cause a direct reaction; that would qualify as forbidden work. But indirect reactions are, well, kosher. In Hebrew, this concept is called the gramma. There are two types of grammas, Ottensoser tells me. Say you hit a light switch, but it doesn't come on immediately - that's a time delay, a time gramma. There's also a gramma of mechanical indirectness, like a Rube Goldberg contraption in which a mouse turns a wheel that swings a hammer that turns a key that launches a rocket. You can't claim the mouse actually launches the rocket. That being said, as an atheist, it sure looks like these people are playing rules lawyer with their god, just like the dick at your D&D game. I have to wonder if such a god would be pleased. [1] http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/kosher.html http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/kosher.html
timinman 15y ago
This is a fantastic discussion about what God might want (or not want). I am a person of faith, I'm impressed by the respectful tone of many commenters even thought they are obviously from very different backgrounds (rare in online discussions). I think God likes that, too.

14 points by JerusaEnt 15y ago

kichuku88 15y ago

Hi. I am not Jewish (I am in a country with hardly any Jews) and I do not know what relation there is to electrical switched to a religious day. Sorry for being ignorant. But can you please explain in simple words what is need for this for Jews?

neilk 15y ago
There are religious proscriptions against doing work on the Sabbath (for Jews, beginning Friday at sundown and lasting until Saturday evening). These include lighting a fire. Some religious authorities believe that completing an electric light is the modern equivalent. Thus, there is an entire industry of elaborate contraptions to allow the observant Orthodox Jew all of the convenience with none of the covenant-breaking. Like this switch, which doesn't create an electric circuit; it blocks an intermittent light pulse which has some possibility of not even doing anything. Allegedly this is more acceptable to the Almighty. Perhaps because the Torah lacks an anti-circumvention clause.
MiguelHudnandez 15y ago
As far as I understand it, some orthodox jews are not permitted to do any "work" on the sabbath. Some factions believe that flicking a light switch is "work," or that pressing a button is "work." So some enterprising fellows have been creating ingenious inventions to allow observant orthodox jews to live comfortably while still not technically violating their rules. It all seems pretty silly to me, but you have to admit, it is indeed hacking and I think the devices are clever. One specific example is an elevator, which has a sabbath mode. On the sabbath, it will stop and open its doors at every floor, over and over, so that an observant rider can simply walk on, and walk off at their desired floor, without the perceived sin of pressing the button for their floor.
- howardr 15y ago
  One of my friends said that his grandparents would light their stove before sundown on friday and leave it lit until sundown Saturday so they would not break kosher laws I have also heard that a lot of devices have kosher mode. E.g. refrigerators lights not coming on and power randomly going in and out much like this swith
  - _delirium 15y ago
    The random-refrigerator-compressor one is something I read about recently and would never have occurred to me. The reasoning is that in a normal setup, the compressor's operation is driven by internal temperature, which is impacted by opening/closing the door, so opening/closing the door is indirectly "operating" an electric motor, the compressor. To avoid that, in Sabbath mode the compressor runs on a non-thermostat-based schedule, so its operation is not being directed by any human activity. Some electric ovens and stoves also have a Sabbath mode that lets them stay on all day; in the normal mode most have an auto-shutoff after 12 hours, under the assumption that an oven left on for more than 12 hours was probably an accident.
- JerusaEnt 15y ago
  Another "hack" us Jews use very often is a timer. We have a timer hooked up to an outlet, and plug things into the timer, so you can set certain times to allow the electricity through, and other times not to.
  - corin_ 15y ago
    It seems to me that "hacks" like these are just missing the point - though I'm an atheist, so maybe I'm just missing the point. If the logic is that God didn't want a fire lit, surely that is because he didn't want the fire, not that he didn't want someone lighting it. Isn't it all a little bit like a scaled down, less immoral, version of saying "No, I didn't kill him, I just pushed him into the ocean - blame the water"?
    - JerusaEnt 15y ago

notphilatall 15y ago

Quick explanation: In orthodox judaism, one is not supposed to operate a light-switch on the Sabbath. I'm not jewish, but some of my friends are observant (but progressive) and use the Sabbath as a day of reflection. This seems to completely go against the spirit of the rule (to spend a day living simply with friends and family, without technology for maximum reflection, introspection, and rest). I don't see how this gadget would catch on -- unless someone is bound is follow the rule to the letter, but doesn't really want to (but then at that point, they should just stop adhering IMHO)

JerusaEnt 15y ago
I am Jewish. So I can tell you that you are 100% right. I don't think this is really going to catch on for that very reason. Sabbath is a day set aside for family, religion, and not working. I think what the main use is going to be is people will install it for emergencies. So I'm sure in Israel a lot of people will put it in their bomb shelters so if they need to spend Sabbath in the shelter and need to use the light, it won't be directly going against Sabbath.
- emmelaich 15y ago
  > will install it for emergencies Surely use in emergencies is allowed already. (I am not Jewish, but I heard an Oy Vey once)
  - JerusaEnt 15y ago
    That is true. If any ones life is in danger, your supposed to "forget" the Sabbath right away and do what's necessary. But, for example, if your wife is very very pregnant and can give birth over Sabbath, if she goes into labour on Sabbath, 100% you HAVE to driver her to the hospital. But it's better if before Sabbath you order a taxi.

D_Alex 15y ago

Poe's Law - an axiom suggesting that it's difficult to distinguish between parodies of religious fundamentalism and its genuine proponents, since they both seem equally insane - seems to apply here.

earl 15y ago

Here's another article about jewish appliances in general [1] with more detail about the restrictions. Essentially, jewish law differentiates between direct and indirect responses to actions. And I can verify you'll occasionally see this stuff on the UES, and a little more often in the Hasidic bits of Brooklyn. Sabbath law prohibits Jews from performing actions that cause a direct reaction; that would qualify as forbidden work. But indirect reactions are, well, kosher. In Hebrew, this concept is called the gramma. There are two types of grammas, Ottensoser tells me. Say you hit a light switch, but it doesn't come on immediately - that's a time delay, a time gramma. There's also a gramma of mechanical indirectness, like a Rube Goldberg contraption in which a mouse turns a wheel that swings a hammer that turns a key that launches a rocket. You can't claim the mouse actually launches the rocket. That being said, as an atheist, it sure looks like these people are playing rules lawyer with their god, just like the dick at your D&D game. I have to wonder if such a god would be pleased. [1] http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/kosher.html http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/kosher.html

timinman 15y ago

This is a fantastic discussion about what God might want (or not want). I am a person of faith, I'm impressed by the respectful tone of many commenters even thought they are obviously from very different backgrounds (rare in online discussions). I think God likes that, too.