6 ms·

Indeed. Not sure why more US-based engineers that are staunchly pro remote work don’t seem concerned about this.

RestlessMind 3y ago
I think a lot of workers do see this. My suspicion is that the current vocal minority is comprised of: truly smart people (10x developers) who will be irreplaceable and liked the comfort of remote work during covid, foreign workers for whom this is a golden opportunity, useful idiots who think 2020-21 is going to be the norm with 150-200K packages out of school and 1M TC for 6 years of experience.
- valar_m 3y ago
  What do you suggest that a "useful idiot" like myself should do? I read your other comments, and all I see are doomsday predictions about us losing our jobs. In another comment you said: > Once all the tools are processes are established to deal with remote work, our job will be instantly shipped to a cheaper country What tools and processes do you think are coming that will going to make this happen? Like a better version of Zoom or something?
  - RestlessMind 3y ago
    > What do you suggest that a "useful idiot" like myself should do? Seek a cluster of companies which have a culture based on in-office work. They are not going to change overnight and will be the last ones to replace American workforce with foreign ones. > all I see are doomsday predictions I agree and maybe that's the psychological effect of seeing multiple rounds of layoffs in the last year with new headcount only in foreign locales. Also, because when I look at how American manufacturing sector declined due to outsourcing, how China rose to prominence, how that enriched the upper class but shredded the working class, how a demagogue like Trump tapped into their resentment to gain incredible political power - it is very difficult to not connect the dots with what is happening now. I will be extremely happy if my predictions are proven wrong.
    - valar_m 3y ago
      > Seek a cluster of companies which have a culture based on in-office work Won't those be the first companies to go under if your prediction happens and they're left competing with overseas remote companies with much lower operating costs? Especially given that they're not only paying higher US salaries, but also physical office space.
      - RestlessMind 3y ago
        Depends on the industry and moats these companies have. eg. I don't see any competition emerging for operating systems or adtech or healthcare systems from nimble players anytime soon. I see plenty of nimble competition in the nascent fields of AI, Crypto etc.
    - Slava_Propanei 3y ago
      [dead]
unity1001 3y ago
Because it is a non-factor: Moving to a cheaper location allows them to cut a major % of the salary requirement due to living costs. Companies are already saving billions by creating satellite offices in cheaper states and providing remote work in that state or region - some even without requiring any days in the office. When the salary requirement is reduced by cutting out the cost of living like that, what ends up being the salary minimum is not so much different from what the overseas dev would want. Its not like top talent in that country will work for the American companies for dimes so that American shareholders can have a payday. You either pay that dev something that will make it worth for him to not go for a major local company and lose the social status and perks associated with it (very important in many local cultures), or he will just take a more traditional career route and work for the local giants. And its not like sloppy copy-paste work from juniors who accept $10-15/hour when they start their career was not available before. If any company that is worth its salt was not able to run a major tech business with such juniors before, they wont be able to run it now either. Therefore what remote work in the US hurts is basically the outrageous real estate sector and its margins. Which is why they put pressure on companies for RTO through the politicians it backs...
- RestlessMind 3y ago
  > what ends up being the salary minimum is not so much different from what the overseas dev would want This is FUD. Based on both qualitative data - my company, which pays Canadians much less than the cheapest US workers, and Latin Americans less than Canadians - and quantitative comparison of median total comps: SFBA: 230K https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/san-francisco-bay-area https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/san-fra... Chicago: 138K https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/greater- https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/greater... chicago-area Toronto: 99K https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/greater-toronto-area https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/greater... Sao Paulo: 39K https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/greater-sao-paulo https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/greater... Bogota: 26K https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/colombia?city=42413 https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/colombi... American workers, who think they can live in Midwest on SV salaries are delusional. If they think they can live in Midwest on 80% of SV salaries, time to know that it's not 2021 anymore. Your competition is with Toronto (proficiency of English, cultural compatibility etc) and depending on what your company wants, you are competing with Bogota and Sao Paulo. > Therefore what remote work in the US hurts is basically the outrageous real estate sector and its margins. Tell that to my American colleagues who were by and large replaced by foreign colleagues in the last year.

I think a lot of workers do see this. My suspicion is that the current vocal minority is comprised of: truly smart people (10x developers) who will be irreplaceable and liked the comfort of remote work during covid, foreign workers for whom this is a golden opportunity, useful idiots who think 2020-21 is going to be the norm with 150-200K packages out of school and 1M TC for 6 years of experience.

valar_m 3y ago
What do you suggest that a "useful idiot" like myself should do? I read your other comments, and all I see are doomsday predictions about us losing our jobs. In another comment you said: > Once all the tools are processes are established to deal with remote work, our job will be instantly shipped to a cheaper country What tools and processes do you think are coming that will going to make this happen? Like a better version of Zoom or something?
- RestlessMind 3y ago
  > What do you suggest that a "useful idiot" like myself should do? Seek a cluster of companies which have a culture based on in-office work. They are not going to change overnight and will be the last ones to replace American workforce with foreign ones. > all I see are doomsday predictions I agree and maybe that's the psychological effect of seeing multiple rounds of layoffs in the last year with new headcount only in foreign locales. Also, because when I look at how American manufacturing sector declined due to outsourcing, how China rose to prominence, how that enriched the upper class but shredded the working class, how a demagogue like Trump tapped into their resentment to gain incredible political power - it is very difficult to not connect the dots with what is happening now. I will be extremely happy if my predictions are proven wrong.
  - valar_m 3y ago
    > Seek a cluster of companies which have a culture based on in-office work Won't those be the first companies to go under if your prediction happens and they're left competing with overseas remote companies with much lower operating costs? Especially given that they're not only paying higher US salaries, but also physical office space.
    - RestlessMind 3y ago
      Depends on the industry and moats these companies have. eg. I don't see any competition emerging for operating systems or adtech or healthcare systems from nimble players anytime soon. I see plenty of nimble competition in the nascent fields of AI, Crypto etc.
  - Slava_Propanei 3y ago
    [dead]

unity1001 3y ago

Because it is a non-factor: Moving to a cheaper location allows them to cut a major % of the salary requirement due to living costs. Companies are already saving billions by creating satellite offices in cheaper states and providing remote work in that state or region - some even without requiring any days in the office. When the salary requirement is reduced by cutting out the cost of living like that, what ends up being the salary minimum is not so much different from what the overseas dev would want. Its not like top talent in that country will work for the American companies for dimes so that American shareholders can have a payday. You either pay that dev something that will make it worth for him to not go for a major local company and lose the social status and perks associated with it (very important in many local cultures), or he will just take a more traditional career route and work for the local giants. And its not like sloppy copy-paste work from juniors who accept $10-15/hour when they start their career was not available before. If any company that is worth its salt was not able to run a major tech business with such juniors before, they wont be able to run it now either. Therefore what remote work in the US hurts is basically the outrageous real estate sector and its margins. Which is why they put pressure on companies for RTO through the politicians it backs...

RestlessMind 3y ago
> what ends up being the salary minimum is not so much different from what the overseas dev would want This is FUD. Based on both qualitative data - my company, which pays Canadians much less than the cheapest US workers, and Latin Americans less than Canadians - and quantitative comparison of median total comps: SFBA: 230K https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/san-francisco-bay-area https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/san-fra... Chicago: 138K https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/greater- https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/greater... chicago-area Toronto: 99K https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/greater-toronto-area https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/greater... Sao Paulo: 39K https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/greater-sao-paulo https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/greater... Bogota: 26K https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/colombia?city=42413 https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/colombi... American workers, who think they can live in Midwest on SV salaries are delusional. If they think they can live in Midwest on 80% of SV salaries, time to know that it's not 2021 anymore. Your competition is with Toronto (proficiency of English, cultural compatibility etc) and depending on what your company wants, you are competing with Bogota and Sao Paulo. > Therefore what remote work in the US hurts is basically the outrageous real estate sector and its margins. Tell that to my American colleagues who were by and large replaced by foreign colleagues in the last year.