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I have a degree in "Celtic Studies" and while I tend to study the Irish early medieval period rather than the ancient period, I would highly recommend reconside

by cyocum 3y ago

I have a degree in "Celtic Studies" and while I tend to study the Irish early medieval period rather than the ancient period, I would highly recommend reconsidering the entire idea of "Celtic". A couple of books that might be good to read if you have time are: John Collis, The Celts : origins, myths & inventions (https://www.worldcat.org/title/921219683 https://www.worldcat.org/title/921219683) and Simon James, The Atlantic Celts : ancient people or modern invention? (https://www.worldcat.org/title/249450858 https://www.worldcat.org/title/249450858). I have not had the time lately to read up on the state of the question so I will read the recommended article: Rachel Pope, Re-approaching Celts: Origins, Society, and Social Change (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10814-021-09157-1 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10814-021-09157-1) with keen interest.

radlad 3y ago
From somewhere near the middle of the linked article: > All of that is to make the point that any treatment of ‘Celtic’ warfare is immediately begging an enormous question because ‘who were the Celts?’ is at best an unanswered question and to be frank, probably an unanswerable question. This table is also of interest: https://acoup.blog/2023/05/12/collections-who-were-the-celts-and-how-did-they-some-of-them-fight/#:~:text=i%20considered%20adding%20a%20third%20column%20with%2C%20%E2%80%98are%20celts%3F%E2%80%99%20and%20a%20shrug%20emoji%20for%20every%20entry%20except%20celtica-proper%2C%20but%20it%20seemed%20like%20overkill%20and%20also%20extra%20work https://acoup.blog/2023/05/12/collections-who-were-the-celts.... So I guess you agree with the author.
- dbingham 3y ago
  That's not the middle - that's pretty near the beginning (look at your scroll bar). But yeah, the author spends a great deal of time on the question and it's really interesting. I got maybe 20 paragraphs in before I realized "this is fascinating, but I need to be doing other things". I intend to return later though, the author's style is great and this is a really interesting article.
  - xapata 3y ago
    I was surprised by the length of his writing, then said, "Ah, that's what he meant by unmitigated."
    - DylanSp 3y ago
      I think Devereaux mentioned on Twitter that this is the longest single post he's written; he usually breaks his more detailed writing into series.
tombh 3y ago
Could you very briefly describe what you consider to be a more productive way of thinking of "The Celts"?
- cyocum 3y ago
  I will try. I tend to think of "The Celts" linguistically as a set of related languages. However, that is an artefact of my own training and background. How the people who spoke those related languages lived can differ radically wherever you find them. For me, to define Celtic is: did they speak a language that is related to those that we have labelled as Celtic? That means that "Celtic" is a convenient shorthand for talking about these languages and does not necessarily have a meaning outside of that. I have not yet finished reading the linked article so I will see if it may alter my thinking any.
  - ak_111 3y ago
    Where would the origin of the Celts be according to current archeological finds if you approached it from this linguistic point of view? Atlantic or central Europe?
    - skywal_l 3y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_T%C3%A8ne_culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_T%C3%A8ne_culture
  - colmmacc 3y ago
    Lorient in Brittany hosts an Interceltique festival; it's a cross-cultural festival that celebrates art, food, language, but it's centered around music and features the best bands from Ireland, Scotland, Wales, The Isle of Man, Cornwall, Brittany, Galicia, Cape Breton, PEI, and New Brunswick. I've gone several times as an accompanist attached to Irish bands, and it's remarkable to me how I can sit in with other musicians from any of those regions and the idioms, base tunes, time signatures, and ornamentation are so similar. I grew up speaking Irish, and while I can understand Scottish Gaelic, I can't follow anything but a word or two of other other Celtic languages. But with music and dance, things seem much much closer. I have to listen and learn much much more to play with other regional folk music, like Eastern European or even French Canadian (which is sort of close to Celtic and shares many tunes), but with the Celtic countries, I've literally sat in on main stages with no rehearsal and we just all know what to do. It does feel like there is quite a deep shared history there.

by cyocum 3y ago

radlad 3y ago

From somewhere near the middle of the linked article: > All of that is to make the point that any treatment of ‘Celtic’ warfare is immediately begging an enormous question because ‘who were the Celts?’ is at best an unanswered question and to be frank, probably an unanswerable question. This table is also of interest: https://acoup.blog/2023/05/12/collections-who-were-the-celts-and-how-did-they-some-of-them-fight/#:~:text=i%20considered%20adding%20a%20third%20column%20with%2C%20%E2%80%98are%20celts%3F%E2%80%99%20and%20a%20shrug%20emoji%20for%20every%20entry%20except%20celtica-proper%2C%20but%20it%20seemed%20like%20overkill%20and%20also%20extra%20work https://acoup.blog/2023/05/12/collections-who-were-the-celts.... So I guess you agree with the author.

dbingham 3y ago
That's not the middle - that's pretty near the beginning (look at your scroll bar). But yeah, the author spends a great deal of time on the question and it's really interesting. I got maybe 20 paragraphs in before I realized "this is fascinating, but I need to be doing other things". I intend to return later though, the author's style is great and this is a really interesting article.
- xapata 3y ago
  I was surprised by the length of his writing, then said, "Ah, that's what he meant by unmitigated."
  - DylanSp 3y ago
    I think Devereaux mentioned on Twitter that this is the longest single post he's written; he usually breaks his more detailed writing into series.

tombh 3y ago

Could you very briefly describe what you consider to be a more productive way of thinking of "The Celts"?

cyocum 3y ago
I will try. I tend to think of "The Celts" linguistically as a set of related languages. However, that is an artefact of my own training and background. How the people who spoke those related languages lived can differ radically wherever you find them. For me, to define Celtic is: did they speak a language that is related to those that we have labelled as Celtic? That means that "Celtic" is a convenient shorthand for talking about these languages and does not necessarily have a meaning outside of that. I have not yet finished reading the linked article so I will see if it may alter my thinking any.
- ak_111 3y ago
  Where would the origin of the Celts be according to current archeological finds if you approached it from this linguistic point of view? Atlantic or central Europe?
  - skywal_l 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_T%C3%A8ne_culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_T%C3%A8ne_culture
- colmmacc 3y ago
  Lorient in Brittany hosts an Interceltique festival; it's a cross-cultural festival that celebrates art, food, language, but it's centered around music and features the best bands from Ireland, Scotland, Wales, The Isle of Man, Cornwall, Brittany, Galicia, Cape Breton, PEI, and New Brunswick. I've gone several times as an accompanist attached to Irish bands, and it's remarkable to me how I can sit in with other musicians from any of those regions and the idioms, base tunes, time signatures, and ornamentation are so similar. I grew up speaking Irish, and while I can understand Scottish Gaelic, I can't follow anything but a word or two of other other Celtic languages. But with music and dance, things seem much much closer. I have to listen and learn much much more to play with other regional folk music, like Eastern European or even French Canadian (which is sort of close to Celtic and shares many tunes), but with the Celtic countries, I've literally sat in on main stages with no rehearsal and we just all know what to do. It does feel like there is quite a deep shared history there.