6 ms·

How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

55 points by Pietertje 3y ago

Zamicol 3y ago
The first solar-powered steel mill was recently built in Pueblo, Colorado: https://gizmodo.com/the-world-s-first-solar-powered-steel-mill-is-here-1847908119 https://gizmodo.com/the-world-s-first-solar-powered-steel-mi...
- dporter 3y ago
  The last paragraph of this article sums up a trend I keep seeing in this industry I don't like: > But while decarbonizing heavy industry is a good thing, the folks behind this project are not my favorites. Lightsource BP is a joint venture between the steel company EVRAZ and the energy giant BP, as well as the utility giant Xcel Energy, which will provide the steel mill with fixed electricity rates through 2041. BP and Xcel wouldn’t exactly be my top choices to control the energy of the future, what with both companies’ histories of spewing out carbon emissions, greenwashing their polluting business plans, and screwing over workers. I personally don’t think these kinds of companies should get to make big profits on solar power or use it to paper over their destructive legacies. But hey, maybe that’s just me! The alternative to this is what? Complete newcomers to the industry attempting to execute multi-million or -billion dollar projects? Anyone in an existing carbon-intensive industry is going to have a "climate unfriendly" reputation because they operate in a "climate unfriendly" industry. Attempting to block existing players in the industry from decarbonizing seems counterproductive.
  - Zamicol 3y ago
    You're right, omitting opinions would have made for a more informative piece. Here's some other (probably better quality) links: - https://www.chieftain.com/story/news/2022/03/18/bighorn-solar-project-support-pueblo-steel-mill-completed/7092334001/ https://www.chieftain.com/story/news/2022/03/18/bighorn-sola... - https://www.constructiondive.com/news/worlds-largest-solar-powered-steel-mill-breaks-ground-in-colorado/619381 https://www.constructiondive.com/news/worlds-largest-solar-p...
- _hypx 3y ago
  That's steel recycling, not production of new steel.
  - throwaway5959 3y ago
    On a long enough time horizon wouldn’t it make sense for most steel to be recycled? I think we already get a lot of our aluminum from recycling.
    - _hypx 3y ago
      Maybe. A lot of grades of steel cannot be made from scrap metal. At some point, you have to be able to turn iron rust in new steel, even if that rust comes from old steel.
    - credit_guy 3y ago
      But most steel is already being recycled, at least in the US, according to the US Geological Surveys [1] > Recycling rates, which fluctuate annually, were estimated to be 98% for structural steel from construction, 88% for appliances, 71% for rebar and reinforcement steel, and 70% for steel packaging. The recycling rates for appliance, can, and construction steel are expected to increase in the United States and in emerging industrial countries at an even greater rate. Public interest in recycling continues, and recycling is becoming more profitable and convenient as environmental regulations for primary production increase. [1] https://pubs.usgs.gov/periodicals/mcs2021/mcs2021-iron-steel-scrap.pdf https://pubs.usgs.gov/periodicals/mcs2021/mcs2021-iron-steel...
      - throwaway5959 3y ago
        So… yes?
      - _hypx 3y ago
        That's not true globally. Only 40% of global steel supply is from recycled steel. https://www.theworldcounts.com/challenges/planet-earth/mining/advantages-of-recycling-steel https://www.theworldcounts.com/challenges/planet-earth/minin...
- wkat4242 3y ago
  The energy isn't the only way carbon is involved in steel production.
johanneswu 3y ago
Without paywall https://archive.is/tzEcD https://archive.is/tzEcD
ranting-moth 3y ago
Is everyone decarbonising? India, China? I get the feeling they're laughing all that way to the bank. (All in favour of it, just everyone has to play along)
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  They've made commitments, at least enough to convince Europe and the US that they are working on it... but whether they will spend more than $5.20 on enforcement, I doubt. Far more fun and strategic to let the US and EU do what they do and shout "We're with you!" from the sidelines. China also makes 80% of the world's solar panels, so we shouldn't pretend that China convincing the US to decarbonize doesn't have some pretty nice business interest in selling them to us - even though it is only 3.5% of their energy generation over there. Kind of like how China is a WTO member, claims to support Copyright, upholds Patent Law, and respects Intellectual Property. They also respect their Constitution, including the provisions for Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech, and have an independent Supreme Court to enforce checks-and-balances on their President. They also have a Functioning Democracy with 8 other political parties. Anyone who has actually interacted with them in any of those fields...
  - Haga 3y ago
    [dead]
  - WeylandYutani 3y ago
    The CCP is dedicated to social stability. China has a long history of environmental disasters causing political unrest. Being a democracy is actually bad for taking action on this issue. The Republicans are still denying climate change.
- gumby 3y ago
  > (All in favour of it, just everyone has to play along) It's worth doing even if others don't. Especially for the wealthy countries -- the poor countries emit relatively little carbon per capita. The new energy transition is from op ex to cap ex. Looks expensive in the short term but a big win in the medium and long term. Plus you get the benefit of reduced emissions. Sure, other people do, but even if you're selfish it's a good deal.
quirk 3y ago
Just please don't decarbonize my swords. I need them for work.
- aidenn0 3y ago
  Now I want to know what you do for work that requires swords...
  - AnonymousPlanet 3y ago
    Maybe running cutting edge blade servers
  - pestatije 3y ago
    swordcery
  - tmtvl 3y ago
    Fencing teacher?
  - hinkley 3y ago
    Professional edge lord.
- hinkley 3y ago
  This is either a joke or you don't know how your tools are made. I'm hoping it's the former. The carbon in the steel serves two purposes. One, it alters the structure of the final steel. Too much, or too little and the metal doesn't behave right, so it's not fit for purpose. Two, it's a sacrificial reducer that keeps any stray oxygen from eating the metal during the heat and cool cycles (most of us call hot oxidation 'burning'). You're still going to need a little carbon to get the steel right and maybe to help catch a few stray oxygen atoms, but if you can heat the metal with something other than coal/charcoal, and you can provide another reducing agent, then you don't have to bathe the entire process in carbon. You'd just need enough to get the crystalline structure right, and perhaps a margin of error. And that sort of fraction could come from renewable resources.
scythe 3y ago
One thing I've been sort of curious about with non-carbothermal iron ore reduction is whether it could bring back wrought iron. Wrought iron disappeared around the 1960s due to high production costs — the crude product contains carbon, which must be removed by working — but iron produced with hydrogen or electricity will not have a chance to absorb carbon like this. There's more to it than that — you have to achieve a particular grain structure and fibrous silicate inclusions. But the corrosion resistance is nice — some wrought iron fencing in the highly corrosive atmosphere of New Orleans persists to this day. One paper reported that the corrosion resistance is better than mild steel but lower than weathering steel — but without creating the stains we associate with weathering steel: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/237170109.pdf https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/237170109.pdf
- aidenn0 3y ago
  Aren't some high-tensile steels rather equivalent to wrought iron? [edit] I couldn't find any high-tensile steel with C alloyed below 0.18%, which is more carbon than what Wikipedia lists for wrought iron.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
easytiger 3y ago
Only in the absurd world of carbon credits is this required - something that is nearly impossible to do any other way - that contributes practically nothing to global CO2 vs the incredible benefit to society it proffers - has to stop. Why?
- Barrin92 3y ago
  decarbonizing the industrial supply chains is pretty crucial because a lot of the other green infrastructure that's going to be needed to be built around the world is going to be less effective otherwise. If your green tech needs to run for years to simply claw back what was required to make it that is a huge issue.
  - easytiger 3y ago
    > If your green tech needs to run for years to simply claw back what was required to make it that is a huge issue. An engineering mind would never prefer high risk authoritarian enforcement of theoretical solutions to solve a problem. You are reducing diversity to shoot yourself in the foot
    - thfuran 3y ago
      Was the EPA a mistake because heavy industry without dumping loads of shit in the rivers was a theoretical solution that reduced diversity?
      - easytiger 3y ago
        Why do you think that is equivalent?
        thfuran 3y ago
        Why do you think it isn't?
- SECProto 3y ago
neonate 3y ago
http://web.archive.org/web/20230512214044/https://www.economist.com/business/2023/05/11/how-fast-can-european-steelmakers-decarbonise http://web.archive.org/web/20230512214044/https://www.econom... https://archive.ph/tzEcD https://archive.ph/tzEcD
roamerz 3y ago
The sooner that people realize that the climate is going to change regardless of what humanity does the better off we will be. When the reality sinks in maybe we can put our efforts into adapting. Might have a chance that way.
- dukeyukey 3y ago
  The climate is going to change. Whether or not it changes 1000x times the historic norm is up to us.
  - roamerz 3y ago
    I read in places their are feedback loops that will be impossible to reverse once they start. If that’s true or not I don’t know. My simple mind says we should start with additional dams and develop huge desalinization plants. If we have water we’ll be okay. On the flip side there is an unstable criminal with his finger on the WW3 button. When he’s done we might need some of that global warming.
- kwere 3y ago
  The world had a chance to keep climate change under the belt in the 80s with nuclear energy, but unscentific enviromentalists pushed hard against it and helped to kill the nuclear industry in most of the world before it reached maturity/economies of scales (like modular reactors today). Now, the trillions of $ should be better spend adapting our societies to climate changes instead of playing Don Chisciotte
user6723 3y ago
Safire plasma, which forms self-containing magnetic fields and is a fusion reaction that can stay lit pretty much indefinitely with no artificial magnet infrastructure (like the crappy Tokomak) renders the CO2 narrative moot.

55 points by Pietertje 3y ago

The first solar-powered steel mill was recently built in Pueblo, Colorado: https://gizmodo.com/the-world-s-first-solar-powered-steel-mill-is-here-1847908119 https://gizmodo.com/the-world-s-first-solar-powered-steel-mi...

dporter 3y ago
The last paragraph of this article sums up a trend I keep seeing in this industry I don't like: > But while decarbonizing heavy industry is a good thing, the folks behind this project are not my favorites. Lightsource BP is a joint venture between the steel company EVRAZ and the energy giant BP, as well as the utility giant Xcel Energy, which will provide the steel mill with fixed electricity rates through 2041. BP and Xcel wouldn’t exactly be my top choices to control the energy of the future, what with both companies’ histories of spewing out carbon emissions, greenwashing their polluting business plans, and screwing over workers. I personally don’t think these kinds of companies should get to make big profits on solar power or use it to paper over their destructive legacies. But hey, maybe that’s just me! The alternative to this is what? Complete newcomers to the industry attempting to execute multi-million or -billion dollar projects? Anyone in an existing carbon-intensive industry is going to have a "climate unfriendly" reputation because they operate in a "climate unfriendly" industry. Attempting to block existing players in the industry from decarbonizing seems counterproductive.
- Zamicol 3y ago
  You're right, omitting opinions would have made for a more informative piece. Here's some other (probably better quality) links: - https://www.chieftain.com/story/news/2022/03/18/bighorn-solar-project-support-pueblo-steel-mill-completed/7092334001/ https://www.chieftain.com/story/news/2022/03/18/bighorn-sola... - https://www.constructiondive.com/news/worlds-largest-solar-powered-steel-mill-breaks-ground-in-colorado/619381 https://www.constructiondive.com/news/worlds-largest-solar-p...
_hypx 3y ago
That's steel recycling, not production of new steel.
- throwaway5959 3y ago
  On a long enough time horizon wouldn’t it make sense for most steel to be recycled? I think we already get a lot of our aluminum from recycling.
  - _hypx 3y ago
    Maybe. A lot of grades of steel cannot be made from scrap metal. At some point, you have to be able to turn iron rust in new steel, even if that rust comes from old steel.
  - credit_guy 3y ago
    But most steel is already being recycled, at least in the US, according to the US Geological Surveys [1] > Recycling rates, which fluctuate annually, were estimated to be 98% for structural steel from construction, 88% for appliances, 71% for rebar and reinforcement steel, and 70% for steel packaging. The recycling rates for appliance, can, and construction steel are expected to increase in the United States and in emerging industrial countries at an even greater rate. Public interest in recycling continues, and recycling is becoming more profitable and convenient as environmental regulations for primary production increase. [1] https://pubs.usgs.gov/periodicals/mcs2021/mcs2021-iron-steel-scrap.pdf https://pubs.usgs.gov/periodicals/mcs2021/mcs2021-iron-steel...
    - throwaway5959 3y ago
      So… yes?
    - _hypx 3y ago
      That's not true globally. Only 40% of global steel supply is from recycled steel. https://www.theworldcounts.com/challenges/planet-earth/mining/advantages-of-recycling-steel https://www.theworldcounts.com/challenges/planet-earth/minin...
wkat4242 3y ago
The energy isn't the only way carbon is involved in steel production.

johanneswu 3y ago

Without paywall https://archive.is/tzEcD https://archive.is/tzEcD

ranting-moth 3y ago

Is everyone decarbonising? India, China? I get the feeling they're laughing all that way to the bank. (All in favour of it, just everyone has to play along)

gjsman-1000 3y ago
They've made commitments, at least enough to convince Europe and the US that they are working on it... but whether they will spend more than $5.20 on enforcement, I doubt. Far more fun and strategic to let the US and EU do what they do and shout "We're with you!" from the sidelines. China also makes 80% of the world's solar panels, so we shouldn't pretend that China convincing the US to decarbonize doesn't have some pretty nice business interest in selling them to us - even though it is only 3.5% of their energy generation over there. Kind of like how China is a WTO member, claims to support Copyright, upholds Patent Law, and respects Intellectual Property. They also respect their Constitution, including the provisions for Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech, and have an independent Supreme Court to enforce checks-and-balances on their President. They also have a Functioning Democracy with 8 other political parties. Anyone who has actually interacted with them in any of those fields...
- Haga 3y ago
  [dead]
- WeylandYutani 3y ago
  The CCP is dedicated to social stability. China has a long history of environmental disasters causing political unrest. Being a democracy is actually bad for taking action on this issue. The Republicans are still denying climate change.
gumby 3y ago
> (All in favour of it, just everyone has to play along) It's worth doing even if others don't. Especially for the wealthy countries -- the poor countries emit relatively little carbon per capita. The new energy transition is from op ex to cap ex. Looks expensive in the short term but a big win in the medium and long term. Plus you get the benefit of reduced emissions. Sure, other people do, but even if you're selfish it's a good deal.

quirk 3y ago

Just please don't decarbonize my swords. I need them for work.

aidenn0 3y ago
Now I want to know what you do for work that requires swords...
- AnonymousPlanet 3y ago
  Maybe running cutting edge blade servers
- pestatije 3y ago
  swordcery
- tmtvl 3y ago
  Fencing teacher?
- hinkley 3y ago
  Professional edge lord.
hinkley 3y ago
This is either a joke or you don't know how your tools are made. I'm hoping it's the former. The carbon in the steel serves two purposes. One, it alters the structure of the final steel. Too much, or too little and the metal doesn't behave right, so it's not fit for purpose. Two, it's a sacrificial reducer that keeps any stray oxygen from eating the metal during the heat and cool cycles (most of us call hot oxidation 'burning'). You're still going to need a little carbon to get the steel right and maybe to help catch a few stray oxygen atoms, but if you can heat the metal with something other than coal/charcoal, and you can provide another reducing agent, then you don't have to bathe the entire process in carbon. You'd just need enough to get the crystalline structure right, and perhaps a margin of error. And that sort of fraction could come from renewable resources.

scythe 3y ago

One thing I've been sort of curious about with non-carbothermal iron ore reduction is whether it could bring back wrought iron. Wrought iron disappeared around the 1960s due to high production costs — the crude product contains carbon, which must be removed by working — but iron produced with hydrogen or electricity will not have a chance to absorb carbon like this. There's more to it than that — you have to achieve a particular grain structure and fibrous silicate inclusions. But the corrosion resistance is nice — some wrought iron fencing in the highly corrosive atmosphere of New Orleans persists to this day. One paper reported that the corrosion resistance is better than mild steel but lower than weathering steel — but without creating the stains we associate with weathering steel: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/237170109.pdf https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/237170109.pdf

aidenn0 3y ago
Aren't some high-tensile steels rather equivalent to wrought iron? [edit] I couldn't find any high-tensile steel with C alloyed below 0.18%, which is more carbon than what Wikipedia lists for wrought iron.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

easytiger 3y ago

Only in the absurd world of carbon credits is this required - something that is nearly impossible to do any other way - that contributes practically nothing to global CO2 vs the incredible benefit to society it proffers - has to stop. Why?

Barrin92 3y ago
decarbonizing the industrial supply chains is pretty crucial because a lot of the other green infrastructure that's going to be needed to be built around the world is going to be less effective otherwise. If your green tech needs to run for years to simply claw back what was required to make it that is a huge issue.
- easytiger 3y ago
  > If your green tech needs to run for years to simply claw back what was required to make it that is a huge issue. An engineering mind would never prefer high risk authoritarian enforcement of theoretical solutions to solve a problem. You are reducing diversity to shoot yourself in the foot
  - thfuran 3y ago
    Was the EPA a mistake because heavy industry without dumping loads of shit in the rivers was a theoretical solution that reduced diversity?
    - easytiger 3y ago
      Why do you think that is equivalent?
      - thfuran 3y ago
        Why do you think it isn't?
SECProto 3y ago

neonate 3y ago

http://web.archive.org/web/20230512214044/https://www.economist.com/business/2023/05/11/how-fast-can-european-steelmakers-decarbonise http://web.archive.org/web/20230512214044/https://www.econom... https://archive.ph/tzEcD https://archive.ph/tzEcD

roamerz 3y ago

The sooner that people realize that the climate is going to change regardless of what humanity does the better off we will be. When the reality sinks in maybe we can put our efforts into adapting. Might have a chance that way.

dukeyukey 3y ago
The climate is going to change. Whether or not it changes 1000x times the historic norm is up to us.
- roamerz 3y ago
  I read in places their are feedback loops that will be impossible to reverse once they start. If that’s true or not I don’t know. My simple mind says we should start with additional dams and develop huge desalinization plants. If we have water we’ll be okay. On the flip side there is an unstable criminal with his finger on the WW3 button. When he’s done we might need some of that global warming.
kwere 3y ago
The world had a chance to keep climate change under the belt in the 80s with nuclear energy, but unscentific enviromentalists pushed hard against it and helped to kill the nuclear industry in most of the world before it reached maturity/economies of scales (like modular reactors today). Now, the trillions of $ should be better spend adapting our societies to climate changes instead of playing Don Chisciotte

user6723 3y ago

Safire plasma, which forms self-containing magnetic fields and is a fusion reaction that can stay lit pretty much indefinitely with no artificial magnet infrastructure (like the crappy Tokomak) renders the CO2 narrative moot.