8 ms·

Can't possibly be secondary effects of Covid-19, right? Because that would mean we would have to acknowledge long covid, and possible immune system damage of r

by mavu 3y ago

Can't possibly be secondary effects of Covid-19, right? Because that would mean we would have to acknowledge long covid, and possible immune system damage of repeated infections. That won't do at all, people might want not to die for the ecconomy.

goatlover 3y ago
You can't separate the economy from the well being of people.
- drekipus 3y ago
  Good point
- anonporridge 3y ago
  When robots do all the work you can.
  - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
    Even robots need energy. If the robots produce the stuff, the robots are "the economy", even if money isn't involved. And if the robots can't produce because of lack of energy, that still hurts people.
- dmbche 3y ago
  On a short timescale, when talking to coked up rich guys, I think people are able to separate the two.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
neurobama 3y ago
The evidence-based research on long COVID is limited and of mixed quality. From what I've seen, there are significant gaps in experimental methodology and a lot of studies based on extremely subjective surveys which don't effectively filter co-morbities. I would strongly caution you to examine the data before adopting a strong position on the issue and applying it to potentially unrelated phenomena.
- deathanatos 3y ago
  Long COVID, from what I can tell / have read, is acknowledged by research[1][2]. The mechanism of it, and what is the best treatment for the people suffering from it, I think, are still the subject of ongoing research. [1]: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/long-term-effects/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/long-term-effects/... [2]: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00846-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00846-2 (etc.; there are numerous studies that are not hard to find?)
  - onos 3y ago
    If the mechanism is not known, what do we know? Since almost everyone got covid, in what sense do we know this is at all associated with covid?
  - neurobama 3y ago
    If you look closely at what those studies actually survey and how that data is collected, it's clear that many possible co-morbid conditions aren't adequately filtered out. There is _no_ objective test or evidence-based protocol that can conclusively diagnose "long COVID." Doctors must rely on checklists of broad symptoms and the patient's word. The CDC page you linked mentions this under "Data for Long COVID:" >For example, some studies look for the presence of Long COVID based on self-reported symptoms, while others collect symptoms and conditions recorded in medical records. Some studies focus only on people who have been hospitalized, while others include people who were not hospitalized. Can serious health conditions can arise as a lasting consequence of infection? Absolutely. Can we easily distinguish between those and other symptoms or conditions which may arise out of stress, anxiety, other unrelated conditions, or symptoms which in some (not all) cases may be psychosomatic? Can we accurately draw conclusions as to how many long-COVID patients there are in total, then apply that conclusion in other areas with confidence as the GP commenter has done? Not yet.
- photon12 3y ago
  Though it is worth noting there is experimental clinical data providing a plausible pathway to suggest long COVID is a result of cell activity dysfunction with plausible biomarkers of dysfunction, and we've known this long enough to know long COVID is a real medical pathology (one distinct from acute infection based on biomarker evidence): Elevated vascular transformation blood biomarkers in Long-COVID indicate angiogenesis as a key pathophysiological mechanism, https://molmed.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s10020-022-00548-8 https://molmed.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s10020-022... Plasma Proteome of Long-covid Patients Indicates Hypoxia-mediated Vasculo-proliferative Disease With Impact on Brain and Heart Function (Preprint), https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-2448315/v1/8043bdbc-0b70-4ef5-8090-521214158396.pdf?c=1673979999 https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-2448315/v1/8043bd...
1over137 3y ago
>Can't possibly be secondary effects of Covid-19, right? It could be because of that, which is why the article address it, and accounts for in in their modelling.

by mavu 3y ago

goatlover 3y ago

You can't separate the economy from the well being of people.

drekipus 3y ago
Good point
anonporridge 3y ago
When robots do all the work you can.
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  Even robots need energy. If the robots produce the stuff, the robots are "the economy", even if money isn't involved. And if the robots can't produce because of lack of energy, that still hurts people.
dmbche 3y ago
On a short timescale, when talking to coked up rich guys, I think people are able to separate the two.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

neurobama 3y ago

The evidence-based research on long COVID is limited and of mixed quality. From what I've seen, there are significant gaps in experimental methodology and a lot of studies based on extremely subjective surveys which don't effectively filter co-morbities. I would strongly caution you to examine the data before adopting a strong position on the issue and applying it to potentially unrelated phenomena.

deathanatos 3y ago
Long COVID, from what I can tell / have read, is acknowledged by research[1][2]. The mechanism of it, and what is the best treatment for the people suffering from it, I think, are still the subject of ongoing research. [1]: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/long-term-effects/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/long-term-effects/... [2]: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00846-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00846-2 (etc.; there are numerous studies that are not hard to find?)
- onos 3y ago
  If the mechanism is not known, what do we know? Since almost everyone got covid, in what sense do we know this is at all associated with covid?
- neurobama 3y ago
  If you look closely at what those studies actually survey and how that data is collected, it's clear that many possible co-morbid conditions aren't adequately filtered out. There is _no_ objective test or evidence-based protocol that can conclusively diagnose "long COVID." Doctors must rely on checklists of broad symptoms and the patient's word. The CDC page you linked mentions this under "Data for Long COVID:" >For example, some studies look for the presence of Long COVID based on self-reported symptoms, while others collect symptoms and conditions recorded in medical records. Some studies focus only on people who have been hospitalized, while others include people who were not hospitalized. Can serious health conditions can arise as a lasting consequence of infection? Absolutely. Can we easily distinguish between those and other symptoms or conditions which may arise out of stress, anxiety, other unrelated conditions, or symptoms which in some (not all) cases may be psychosomatic? Can we accurately draw conclusions as to how many long-COVID patients there are in total, then apply that conclusion in other areas with confidence as the GP commenter has done? Not yet.
photon12 3y ago
Though it is worth noting there is experimental clinical data providing a plausible pathway to suggest long COVID is a result of cell activity dysfunction with plausible biomarkers of dysfunction, and we've known this long enough to know long COVID is a real medical pathology (one distinct from acute infection based on biomarker evidence): Elevated vascular transformation blood biomarkers in Long-COVID indicate angiogenesis as a key pathophysiological mechanism, https://molmed.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s10020-022-00548-8 https://molmed.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s10020-022... Plasma Proteome of Long-covid Patients Indicates Hypoxia-mediated Vasculo-proliferative Disease With Impact on Brain and Heart Function (Preprint), https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-2448315/v1/8043bdbc-0b70-4ef5-8090-521214158396.pdf?c=1673979999 https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-2448315/v1/8043bd...

1over137 3y ago

>Can't possibly be secondary effects of Covid-19, right? It could be because of that, which is why the article address it, and accounts for in in their modelling.