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> is effectively a theocracy operated by an ultra-conservative religious minority. You should look up what the word theocracy means. Here. I'll do it for you:

> is effectively a theocracy operated by an ultra-conservative religious minority. You should look up what the word theocracy means. Here. I'll do it for you: "a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god." Utah's government is a constitutional Republic. People vote in leaders who make laws and administer the government on their behalf. > Utah is about as similar to the rest of the United States as the rest of the United States is similar to the Middle East. Your unequivocally false, deceitful, and extremely hyperbolic statements aren't helping anyone out.

cogitoergofutuo 3y ago
Have you spent much time in Utah? Off the top of my head I can’t think of an organization that could be considered an even distant second to the LDS church in terms of influence over policies brought to and enacted by the elected officials in that state.
- LeifCarrotson 3y ago
  It's a constitutional republic that got taken over by a 51% attack that, thanks in part to FPTP elections, they've leveraged into a supermajority.
  - tristor 3y ago
    > It's a constitutional republic that got taken over by a 51% attack It's a state that was literally created to be a place for Mormons because they were a persecuted religious minority ran out of every other state and it was a huge desert wasteland nobody else wanted. It's only due to huge influxes of immigration, especially from the South, that Utah is... checks notes only 85% white and 60% Mormon. So it's like less of a 51% attack and more, business as usual and intended. If anything, the non-Mormons are going to soon be able to do a 51% attack and take Utah back, since Mormons are only 2% of the US population, and Californians are mass migrating to Utah now that people realized you can build in the desert with modern technology.
    - WeylandYutani 3y ago
      Persecuted because Mormons refused to respect American laws. Yes if someone starts a cult that does illegal things they don't get to claim religious freedom or cry about persecution.
      - friend_and_foe 3y ago
        What laws would those be exactly?
        QuarterReptile 3y ago
        polygamy? Take a moment to think about history of US statehood. The Mormons, chased off Eastern settlements for their polygamy, settled most of the mountain West, declared governance, then watched big mining operations all around them get cut off from their territory and turned into full-fledged states, while they were not admitted to the union for decades. It was a time of shared culture that is unrecognizable from where we stand today, and they absolutely didn't want to give statehood to polygamists...
        friend_and_foe 3y ago
        Polygamy was federally outlawed precisely for the purpose of (dare I say) oppressing Mormons. It was not the law of the land until well after the migration to Deseret and the first attempt at statehood.
        cogitoergofutuo 3y ago
        https://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/resources/mormon.asp https://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/resources/mormon.asp
        friend_and_foe 3y ago
        > Violence broke out in 1833 as the “Old Settlers” under the guise of “extra-legal” justice took the law into their own hands. I'm seeing no mention of Mormons breaking laws, the only mentions of law breaking references other people breaking laws to persecute Mormons. The governor of Missouri's declares that they are to be expelled or exterminated (!!!), the mobs attacked them and killed them, no mention anywhere in your link of Mormons breaking any laws. Note that I do not take the position that Mormons broke no laws, I'd just like to know what laws they broke, and particularly what federal laws they broke, since my reply is to the claim that they broke American laws and not of some specific state.
newswasboring 3y ago
I'm always vary of these arguments. Doesn't mean you are wrong, but remember there is a country call Democratic People's Republic of Korea and it has elections every 4-5 years. Last one was in 2019.
pkulak 3y ago
Theocracies can be elected. I fail to see how your definition of a theocracy automatically disqualifies Utah from being an "effective theocracy".
- PathOfEclipse 3y ago
  > Theocracies can be elected. No, they can't, at least not by a general citizenship against a general pool of candidates. The Vatican's citizens don't get to elect the pope, and among those few who do vote, they can't choose a Bhuddist to be Pope. > I fail to see how your definition of a theocracy automatically disqualifies Utah from being an "effective theocracy". Well,I think you have to try really, really hard, not to see that.
  - tristor 3y ago
    >> Theocracies can be elected. > No, they can't Why not? The vast majority of people in Utah are Mormon, and people in high positions within the LDS Church often go into state and local politics and elected, precisely because they will enact policies that align with the moral tenets of the Mormon religion...
    - PathOfEclipse 3y ago
      > people in high positions within the LDS Church often go into state and local politics and elect Yep. That's called a democracy, or a Republic, depending on which word you prefer. It's literally nothing like a Theocracy, in practice or in theory. You should probably study what an actual theocracy is: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/theocracy-countries https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/theocracy...
      - tristor 3y ago
        It's literally a theocracy /in practice/ because the religious minority is the majority in that region, in a state literally created for them, and they have run it since its foundation on the basis of the their religious beliefs, and continue to do so. You can't get more theocratic while being inside the US.

cogitoergofutuo 3y ago

Have you spent much time in Utah? Off the top of my head I can’t think of an organization that could be considered an even distant second to the LDS church in terms of influence over policies brought to and enacted by the elected officials in that state.

LeifCarrotson 3y ago
It's a constitutional republic that got taken over by a 51% attack that, thanks in part to FPTP elections, they've leveraged into a supermajority.
- tristor 3y ago
  > It's a constitutional republic that got taken over by a 51% attack It's a state that was literally created to be a place for Mormons because they were a persecuted religious minority ran out of every other state and it was a huge desert wasteland nobody else wanted. It's only due to huge influxes of immigration, especially from the South, that Utah is... checks notes only 85% white and 60% Mormon. So it's like less of a 51% attack and more, business as usual and intended. If anything, the non-Mormons are going to soon be able to do a 51% attack and take Utah back, since Mormons are only 2% of the US population, and Californians are mass migrating to Utah now that people realized you can build in the desert with modern technology.
  - WeylandYutani 3y ago
    Persecuted because Mormons refused to respect American laws. Yes if someone starts a cult that does illegal things they don't get to claim religious freedom or cry about persecution.
    - friend_and_foe 3y ago
      What laws would those be exactly?
      - QuarterReptile 3y ago
        polygamy? Take a moment to think about history of US statehood. The Mormons, chased off Eastern settlements for their polygamy, settled most of the mountain West, declared governance, then watched big mining operations all around them get cut off from their territory and turned into full-fledged states, while they were not admitted to the union for decades. It was a time of shared culture that is unrecognizable from where we stand today, and they absolutely didn't want to give statehood to polygamists...
        friend_and_foe 3y ago
        Polygamy was federally outlawed precisely for the purpose of (dare I say) oppressing Mormons. It was not the law of the land until well after the migration to Deseret and the first attempt at statehood.
      - cogitoergofutuo 3y ago
        https://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/resources/mormon.asp https://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/resources/mormon.asp
        friend_and_foe 3y ago
        > Violence broke out in 1833 as the “Old Settlers” under the guise of “extra-legal” justice took the law into their own hands. I'm seeing no mention of Mormons breaking laws, the only mentions of law breaking references other people breaking laws to persecute Mormons. The governor of Missouri's declares that they are to be expelled or exterminated (!!!), the mobs attacked them and killed them, no mention anywhere in your link of Mormons breaking any laws. Note that I do not take the position that Mormons broke no laws, I'd just like to know what laws they broke, and particularly what federal laws they broke, since my reply is to the claim that they broke American laws and not of some specific state.

newswasboring 3y ago

I'm always vary of these arguments. Doesn't mean you are wrong, but remember there is a country call Democratic People's Republic of Korea and it has elections every 4-5 years. Last one was in 2019.

pkulak 3y ago

Theocracies can be elected. I fail to see how your definition of a theocracy automatically disqualifies Utah from being an "effective theocracy".

PathOfEclipse 3y ago
> Theocracies can be elected. No, they can't, at least not by a general citizenship against a general pool of candidates. The Vatican's citizens don't get to elect the pope, and among those few who do vote, they can't choose a Bhuddist to be Pope. > I fail to see how your definition of a theocracy automatically disqualifies Utah from being an "effective theocracy". Well,I think you have to try really, really hard, not to see that.
- tristor 3y ago
  >> Theocracies can be elected. > No, they can't Why not? The vast majority of people in Utah are Mormon, and people in high positions within the LDS Church often go into state and local politics and elected, precisely because they will enact policies that align with the moral tenets of the Mormon religion...
  - PathOfEclipse 3y ago
    > people in high positions within the LDS Church often go into state and local politics and elect Yep. That's called a democracy, or a Republic, depending on which word you prefer. It's literally nothing like a Theocracy, in practice or in theory. You should probably study what an actual theocracy is: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/theocracy-countries https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/theocracy...
    - tristor 3y ago
      It's literally a theocracy /in practice/ because the religious minority is the majority in that region, in a state literally created for them, and they have run it since its foundation on the basis of the their religious beliefs, and continue to do so. You can't get more theocratic while being inside the US.