6 ms·

The first study has 3 patients. The second study is a little better, but not by much. Both have the same first author. If this were legitimate, some academic me

The first study has 3 patients. The second study is a little better, but not by much. Both have the same first author. If this were legitimate, some academic medical center in the US would have picked it up. Parkinson’s is a huge target, and this kind of thing makes a career. This is likely on the same level as horse dewormer for COVID.

logicchains 3y ago
>This is likely on the same level as horse dewormer for COVID You mean something that's demonstrated to have a statistically significant protective effect in a majority of studies but was attacked mercilessly by the pharma industry and the media they fund because they can't profit from a generic drug like that? https://c19ivm.org/meta.html https://c19ivm.org/meta.html
- defrost 3y ago
  Looks great .. dive in (talk to your local professional epidemiologist) and it's a skewed collection of low N studies mixed in with studies in regions with large intestinal parasite issues. Does horse dewormer do anything significant for large populations in first world countries? No. (Save for regions with a intestinal parasite problem) Elsewhere it gets rid of a significant number of parasites, making people healthier, and improving their chances WRT everything else, the common cold, influenza, COVID, etc. If you have worms, take a dewormer course. If you don't .. it won't do diddly squat for COVID. Statistics!! (Sometimes there's correlation but that ain't always causal).
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - sixQuarks 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - defrost 3y ago
      Fair point, it's also effective against a wider range of parasites, head lice, eyelash mites, and skin conditions. In the case of COVID in populations sans those conditions .. not so much.
      - sixQuarks 3y ago
        In addition to head lice and eyelash mites, it might also be useful to point out it is the only drug to win a Nobel Prize for treatment of infectious diseases. Used by BILLIONS of people. May I remind you that you referred to this drug as a horse dewormer before you were called out. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34466270/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34466270/
        Cthulhu_ 3y ago
        Appeal to authority & false equivalence (apples & oranges); just because it's won a nobel prize doesn't mean it's a miracle cure against the 'rona. I'm already dubious of the article you linked because the title uses appeal to authority (nobel prize winning) and emotional language (new global scourge). I won't disagree that ivermectin improves life expectancy in some of those studies, but it doesn't seem to be effective in environments with less parasites. Note also that it focuses on fatalities, not getting the disease, curing it faster than its natural course, or preventing it. For a great meta-meta research, see https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-more-than-you-wanted https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-more-t...
        sixQuarks 3y ago
        I didn’t even say anything about covid. I was refuting that it should be referenced as horse dewormer. You seem to have some major bias as well.
        defrost 3y ago
        FWiW no drug has ever won a Nobel prize - researchers are awarded such prizes. Specifically William C. Campbell and Satoshi Ōmura shared the 2015 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for their work developing a new drug, Avermectin. From the actual press release from the actual Nobel Prize Committee [1]: which was subsequently chemically modified to a more effective compound called Ivermectin. Ivermectin was later tested in humans with parasitic infections and effectively killed parasite larvae (microfilaria). Collectively, Ōmura and Campbell’s contributions led to the discovery of a new class of drugs with extraordinary efficacy against parasitic diseases. So, in actual fact NOT used for treatment of "infectious diseases" but for treatment specifically of parasitic diseases because it was developed to be a highly effective dewormer that kills roundworm parasites. The Nobel Prize press release that you yourself cite (although apparently have never actually read) depicts Ivermectin as a Horse Dewormer (see figure 3) - it also deworms cattle, humans, pigs, etc. As a highly effective dewormer it is obviously positively correlated with health improvements in any large population with significant parasites - killing parasite improves overall health, more food eaten available for the host, improved immune responses, etc. Hence the reason for many global studies showing positive results following Ivermectin treatments. Hence also the reason quacks in the US started pushing propaganda about supposed effectiveness against COVID, setting up smoke and mirror site such as the one linked above, and spreading sly not quite untruths such as the Nobel Prize one you've repeated. Do please read the original 2015 press release in full. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20151005210425/http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/2015/press.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20151005210425/http://www.nobelp...
  - linuxftw 3y ago
    Ivermectin is a protease inhibitor, among other possible mechanisms. They developed Paxlovid to work in a similar way, but it seems to be not effective whatsoever. Then you have Remdisiv, which definitely killed 10's of thousands of people, if not more. That's the real story of COVID, at least in the US. The countless people that were experimented on with one of the most dangerous drugs to be invented in recent times.
okeuro49 3y ago
> This is likely on the same level as horse dewormer for COVID. That something sounds strange doesn't particularly lead me to question the likelihood of efficacy. The evidence on something's efficacy leads me to question something's efficacy.
dang 3y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35770871 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35770871 and marked it off topic. Please don't take HN thread on generic flamewar tangents. This is in the site guidelines: "Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

logicchains 3y ago

>This is likely on the same level as horse dewormer for COVID You mean something that's demonstrated to have a statistically significant protective effect in a majority of studies but was attacked mercilessly by the pharma industry and the media they fund because they can't profit from a generic drug like that? https://c19ivm.org/meta.html https://c19ivm.org/meta.html

defrost 3y ago
Looks great .. dive in (talk to your local professional epidemiologist) and it's a skewed collection of low N studies mixed in with studies in regions with large intestinal parasite issues. Does horse dewormer do anything significant for large populations in first world countries? No. (Save for regions with a intestinal parasite problem) Elsewhere it gets rid of a significant number of parasites, making people healthier, and improving their chances WRT everything else, the common cold, influenza, COVID, etc. If you have worms, take a dewormer course. If you don't .. it won't do diddly squat for COVID. Statistics!! (Sometimes there's correlation but that ain't always causal).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- sixQuarks 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - defrost 3y ago
    Fair point, it's also effective against a wider range of parasites, head lice, eyelash mites, and skin conditions. In the case of COVID in populations sans those conditions .. not so much.
    - sixQuarks 3y ago
      In addition to head lice and eyelash mites, it might also be useful to point out it is the only drug to win a Nobel Prize for treatment of infectious diseases. Used by BILLIONS of people. May I remind you that you referred to this drug as a horse dewormer before you were called out. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34466270/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34466270/
      - Cthulhu_ 3y ago
        Appeal to authority & false equivalence (apples & oranges); just because it's won a nobel prize doesn't mean it's a miracle cure against the 'rona. I'm already dubious of the article you linked because the title uses appeal to authority (nobel prize winning) and emotional language (new global scourge). I won't disagree that ivermectin improves life expectancy in some of those studies, but it doesn't seem to be effective in environments with less parasites. Note also that it focuses on fatalities, not getting the disease, curing it faster than its natural course, or preventing it. For a great meta-meta research, see https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-more-than-you-wanted https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-more-t...
        sixQuarks 3y ago
        I didn’t even say anything about covid. I was refuting that it should be referenced as horse dewormer. You seem to have some major bias as well.
      - defrost 3y ago
        FWiW no drug has ever won a Nobel prize - researchers are awarded such prizes. Specifically William C. Campbell and Satoshi Ōmura shared the 2015 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for their work developing a new drug, Avermectin. From the actual press release from the actual Nobel Prize Committee [1]: which was subsequently chemically modified to a more effective compound called Ivermectin. Ivermectin was later tested in humans with parasitic infections and effectively killed parasite larvae (microfilaria). Collectively, Ōmura and Campbell’s contributions led to the discovery of a new class of drugs with extraordinary efficacy against parasitic diseases. So, in actual fact NOT used for treatment of "infectious diseases" but for treatment specifically of parasitic diseases because it was developed to be a highly effective dewormer that kills roundworm parasites. The Nobel Prize press release that you yourself cite (although apparently have never actually read) depicts Ivermectin as a Horse Dewormer (see figure 3) - it also deworms cattle, humans, pigs, etc. As a highly effective dewormer it is obviously positively correlated with health improvements in any large population with significant parasites - killing parasite improves overall health, more food eaten available for the host, improved immune responses, etc. Hence the reason for many global studies showing positive results following Ivermectin treatments. Hence also the reason quacks in the US started pushing propaganda about supposed effectiveness against COVID, setting up smoke and mirror site such as the one linked above, and spreading sly not quite untruths such as the Nobel Prize one you've repeated. Do please read the original 2015 press release in full. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20151005210425/http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/2015/press.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20151005210425/http://www.nobelp...
- linuxftw 3y ago
  Ivermectin is a protease inhibitor, among other possible mechanisms. They developed Paxlovid to work in a similar way, but it seems to be not effective whatsoever. Then you have Remdisiv, which definitely killed 10's of thousands of people, if not more. That's the real story of COVID, at least in the US. The countless people that were experimented on with one of the most dangerous drugs to be invented in recent times.

okeuro49 3y ago

> This is likely on the same level as horse dewormer for COVID. That something sounds strange doesn't particularly lead me to question the likelihood of efficacy. The evidence on something's efficacy leads me to question something's efficacy.

dang 3y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35770871 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35770871 and marked it off topic. Please don't take HN thread on generic flamewar tangents. This is in the site guidelines: "Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html