7 ms·

I was fully expecting a grounding once I first heard the details of the second crash and saw how closely it resembled the first. I was shocked that it didn’t ha

I was fully expecting a grounding once I first heard the details of the second crash and saw how closely it resembled the first. I was shocked that it didn’t happen before other international agencies did it. The FAA did itself no favor here.

didntknowya 3y ago
it's a shame that a lot of international agencies used to look to the FAA first as a benchmark for policies. But they really dropped the ball here and giving the perception of prioritizing Boeing's profit margins over consumer safety.
dboreham 3y ago
[flagged]
- myko 3y ago
  I didn't recall the specifics here but it's worse than I assumed from your comment, trump blamed "foreign pilots" for the crashes: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/after-two-faulty-boeing-jets-crash-the-trump-administration-blames-foreign-pilots/2019/05/15/e940a692-774e-11e9-b3f5-5673edf2d127_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/after-two-faulty-boe...
  - 908B64B197 3y ago
    Not only that but the flight test software written by the offshored 9$/h Indian contractors sure didn't help...
    - usui 3y ago
      Can you share a link to this? I would like to read up more on the conditions that the flight test software was made.
      - 908B64B197 3y ago
        https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing-outsourced-737-max-report-2019-6 https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing-outsourced-737-max-re... https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/how-boeing-lost-its-bearings/602188/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/how-boeing... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-28/boeing-s-737-max-software-outsourced-to-9-an-hour-engineers https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-28/boeing-s-...
  - ecommerceguy 3y ago
    My pilot neighbor, who is a captain at a major domestic us airline that flys maxes, also blamed foreign airlines pilots for lack of proper training.
    - yenda 3y ago
      What was the training? From what I read the plane was sold as being flown without the need for new training to counter the Airbus jet?
      - YeBanKo 3y ago
        Our club has few professional pilots and iirc their more or less shared opinion was that boeing fucked up, but the expectation was that pilots training should have prevented the crashes. Regardless of Airbus, Boeing expectation still is that pilots can fly with minimum automation, and if something is wrong / odd they know how to disable it all, take full control, gain altitude and figure things out.
      - stevenhuang 3y ago
        iirc the proper course of action for this failure condition was to perform manual cutoff of the stabilizer trim, which is considered a mandatory memory item for flying even normal Boeing 737s (non max) basically, on runway stabilizer events, you must know to turn off the autopilot: https://www.johanpercherin.info/airline-pilot-training/boeing-737-memory-items-runaway-stabilizer/ https://www.johanpercherin.info/airline-pilot-training/boein... apparently the differences in training have resulted in the lack of knowledge in this area for foreign pilots, which turned a recoverable failure into an irrecoverable one disclosure I'm just going from memory from reading about 737 max analysis, there might be more to it than thi Edit: as expected the situation is more nuanced, see here for elaboration on why even successfully performing stab trim cutoff may not have been sufficient: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35769100 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35769100
    - kelnos 3y ago
      What proper training? Boeing deliberately decided not to document the new behavior, and the entire point of MCAS was to avoid needing new pilot training. Sounds like your pilot neighbor is just a bigot.
  - mrtksn 3y ago
    IIRC, the argument was that there exist a special manoeuvre which can make it possible to save the plane by slowing down the the plane airspeed so the pilots can manually turn the wheels controlling the trim. So some pilots were claiming that "no American pilot would let this happen", I guess due to their superior training. It wasn't just a distasteful position, but also the largest American 737 MAX operator opted in for the extra safety package which included a second angle of attack sensor and "sensors disagree" light which would have reduced the chances of this happening anyway[0]. Making faulty planes then selling the extra features for detecting the faults and claiming that if you can't fly a faulty plane you are not a good pilot is psychopathic IMHO. [0] : https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/business/boeing-safety-features-charge.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/business/boeing-safety-fe...
    - KyeRussell 3y ago
      Boeing looking lustfully at the B2B SaaS market
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- tehjoker 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - mozman 3y ago
    Probably zero.
_siis 3y ago
If you know anyone that's worked in the industry, you know there have been issues well before 2014. Since the company merged with its competitor they had a complete management shift which incentivizes many of the failures we've seen recently. Al Jazeera did an investigation into them in 2014; you should be able to find it available online somewhere. It was damning and surprisingly well researched. Mind you this was well before they changed the system regarding the nose pointing down; without disclosing it to the pilots. They are just going business as usual. I and many I know well would never willingly fly in one of their planes.

didntknowya 3y ago

it's a shame that a lot of international agencies used to look to the FAA first as a benchmark for policies. But they really dropped the ball here and giving the perception of prioritizing Boeing's profit margins over consumer safety.

dboreham 3y ago

[flagged]

myko 3y ago
I didn't recall the specifics here but it's worse than I assumed from your comment, trump blamed "foreign pilots" for the crashes: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/after-two-faulty-boeing-jets-crash-the-trump-administration-blames-foreign-pilots/2019/05/15/e940a692-774e-11e9-b3f5-5673edf2d127_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/after-two-faulty-boe...
- 908B64B197 3y ago
  Not only that but the flight test software written by the offshored 9$/h Indian contractors sure didn't help...
  - usui 3y ago
    Can you share a link to this? I would like to read up more on the conditions that the flight test software was made.
    - 908B64B197 3y ago
      https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing-outsourced-737-max-report-2019-6 https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing-outsourced-737-max-re... https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/how-boeing-lost-its-bearings/602188/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/how-boeing... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-28/boeing-s-737-max-software-outsourced-to-9-an-hour-engineers https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-28/boeing-s-...
- ecommerceguy 3y ago
  My pilot neighbor, who is a captain at a major domestic us airline that flys maxes, also blamed foreign airlines pilots for lack of proper training.
  - yenda 3y ago
    What was the training? From what I read the plane was sold as being flown without the need for new training to counter the Airbus jet?
    - YeBanKo 3y ago
      Our club has few professional pilots and iirc their more or less shared opinion was that boeing fucked up, but the expectation was that pilots training should have prevented the crashes. Regardless of Airbus, Boeing expectation still is that pilots can fly with minimum automation, and if something is wrong / odd they know how to disable it all, take full control, gain altitude and figure things out.
    - stevenhuang 3y ago
      iirc the proper course of action for this failure condition was to perform manual cutoff of the stabilizer trim, which is considered a mandatory memory item for flying even normal Boeing 737s (non max) basically, on runway stabilizer events, you must know to turn off the autopilot: https://www.johanpercherin.info/airline-pilot-training/boeing-737-memory-items-runaway-stabilizer/ https://www.johanpercherin.info/airline-pilot-training/boein... apparently the differences in training have resulted in the lack of knowledge in this area for foreign pilots, which turned a recoverable failure into an irrecoverable one disclosure I'm just going from memory from reading about 737 max analysis, there might be more to it than thi Edit: as expected the situation is more nuanced, see here for elaboration on why even successfully performing stab trim cutoff may not have been sufficient: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35769100 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35769100
  - kelnos 3y ago
    What proper training? Boeing deliberately decided not to document the new behavior, and the entire point of MCAS was to avoid needing new pilot training. Sounds like your pilot neighbor is just a bigot.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  IIRC, the argument was that there exist a special manoeuvre which can make it possible to save the plane by slowing down the the plane airspeed so the pilots can manually turn the wheels controlling the trim. So some pilots were claiming that "no American pilot would let this happen", I guess due to their superior training. It wasn't just a distasteful position, but also the largest American 737 MAX operator opted in for the extra safety package which included a second angle of attack sensor and "sensors disagree" light which would have reduced the chances of this happening anyway[0]. Making faulty planes then selling the extra features for detecting the faults and claiming that if you can't fly a faulty plane you are not a good pilot is psychopathic IMHO. [0] : https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/business/boeing-safety-features-charge.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/business/boeing-safety-fe...
  - KyeRussell 3y ago
    Boeing looking lustfully at the B2B SaaS market
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
tehjoker 3y ago
[flagged]
- mozman 3y ago
  Probably zero.

_siis 3y ago

If you know anyone that's worked in the industry, you know there have been issues well before 2014. Since the company merged with its competitor they had a complete management shift which incentivizes many of the failures we've seen recently. Al Jazeera did an investigation into them in 2014; you should be able to find it available online somewhere. It was damning and surprisingly well researched. Mind you this was well before they changed the system regarding the nose pointing down; without disclosing it to the pilots. They are just going business as usual. I and many I know well would never willingly fly in one of their planes.