11 ms·

Erm, your argument has nothing to do with college degrees at all. You’re just saying Canadian police shoot less people than American police, which nobody is di

Erm, your argument has nothing to do with college degrees at all. You’re just saying Canadian police shoot less people than American police, which nobody is disputing.

nawgz 3y ago
> your argument has nothing to do with college degrees at all What I'm saying is pretty obvious, but I'll spell it out for you. 1. Canadian and American cultures are extremely homogenous 2. Canadian and American police have few differences, but a critical one is the Canadian-only requirement of university degrees 3. With no other clearly-defined drivers of police culture differentiation across the border, we see that US police are probably 4-8x more lethal than Canadian police per capita So, since the police is clearly not about to properly train their people, let's not dismiss the value of a university degree as a filter, since it appears from a high level view that a university degree could serve to make a police officer 1/5th as likely to kill a citizen compared to a diploma. Will you propose a different reason why US police are so much deadlier, related to crime statistics or otherwise, or will you just continue to say "the police should train their people", not hold them to account for not training their people, and also excuse them for dropping educational requirements that served in lieu of that training?
- augment003 3y ago
  So, you are actually claiming that the reason American police shoot more people than Canadian police is because Canadian police have college degrees and American police do not? Even if your premises were correct, it wouldn’t be worth trying to debate that further. Hint: They aren’t. Do some research on what percentage of US police have college degrees, and what percentage of Canadian police have college degrees. It isn’t what you think. Also, you might want to look at the demographics of who police shoot in the US, and inform yourself of the differences between Canadian gun culture and the US.
  - nawgz 3y ago
    > You might want to look at the demographics of who police shoot in the US Canadian police are also quite racist, but if you're arguing that "less educated American cops are more racist", that tracks pretty nicely with "please don't accept less educated cops" > you are actually claiming that the reason American police shoot more people than Canadian police is because Canadian police have college degrees and American police do not? Do you have a different explanation? > Do some research on what percentage of US police have college degrees According to [0], the breakdown of US officer max education of no college/college diploma/undergrad/grad is: * 49/20/25/5 > and what percentage of Canadian police have college degrees And, according to [1], for Canadian officers, it's: * 19/51/29/1.6 Quite a disparity. Especially when you consider sources like [2][3], which argue that: > "Studies have found that a small proportion of police officers – about 5% – produce most citizen complaints, and officers with a two-year degree are about half as likely to be in the high-rate complaint group" Overall, I believe there's lots of evidence suggesting more educated police are better police and citizens, and none suggesting the opposite - that less educated police are better. Across the board, Canadian police are significantly better educated, with the exception of less Graduated degrees. Across the board, Canadian police are less deadly to their citizens. Not a coincidence - go ahead and say some more stupid shit though. [0]: https://www.nu.edu/blog/law-enforcement-education https://www.nu.edu/blog/law-enforcement-education [1]: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2015001/article/14146-eng.htm https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2015001/article... [2]: https://theconversation.com/5-reasons-police-officers-should-have-college-degrees-140523 https://theconversation.com/5-reasons-police-officers-should... Source of the quote [3]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0047235210000048 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00472... Source of the info behind the quote, paywalled
    - augment003 3y ago
      [flagged]
- fauxpause_ 3y ago
  This butchering of statistical reasoning is so poor I have to assume it is a troll But in case it’s genuine, consider vast differences in gun ownership, homicide rate, and… honestly so many other things it’s just annoying to list them.
  - nawgz 3y ago
    > consider vast differences I did. Gun ownership is about 32% of individuals in USA vs 25% of individuals in Canada. Homicide rate is about 2.5x higher in the US, which means US cops are outperforming this statistic vs US civilians. > so many other things It's not just annoying to list them, it's ridiculous; these countries are the exact same place. Across the board, everything you can think of has a lot of statistical homogeneity between these places. But Canadian cops are way better educated, and kill way less. Around the world, cops that are better educated kill way less. So why exactly are people excusing reductions in education requirements for police? It makes no sense. There's no supporting evidence that that's a good choice, and literal mountains showing that it's a bad one. This thread is bizarro world.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - augment003 3y ago
      Have you considered handguns as a factor?
      - nawgz 3y ago
        Handguns are the most interesting statistic here, with the US being a serious outlier (58%! vs 12% in Canada), it could be related I still don't see how you deny that more educated officers are less violent when I've made multiple links supporting that argument
        augment003 3y ago
        [flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Will you propose a different reason why US police are so much deadlier Guns. 1.2 per American, 0.35 per Canadian [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g...
  - nawgz 3y ago
    That's not a very good argument - those guns are concentrated in the hands of about 32% of the US population [0], whereas in Canada it's probably closer to 25% [1]. [1] says "[t]he overall rate of firearm ownership is at least 241 per 1,000 population and is comparable to ownership rates in other countries where hunting is a significant activity" [0]: https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own... [1]: https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/csj-sjc/jsp-sjp/wd98_4-dt98_4/p2.html https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/csj-sjc/jsp-sjp/wd98_4-d...
    - augment003 3y ago
      Seems like you don’t know there’s a difference between handguns and hunting rifles.
- giantg2 3y ago
  Crime rates, prevalence of firearms, etc are major differences which could account for the discrepancy. Many police in the US are required to have 60 credits minimum in college education (associates degree equivalent). If you want to really look into this, legitimately, the best thing to do would be to compare use police to each other based on education. This is likely hard to do. However, state-level requirements and deaths could be compared between states with similar crime/murder rates.

Erm, your argument has nothing to do with college degrees at all. You’re just saying Canadian police shoot less people than American police, which nobody is disputing.

nawgz 3y ago

> your argument has nothing to do with college degrees at all What I'm saying is pretty obvious, but I'll spell it out for you. 1. Canadian and American cultures are extremely homogenous 2. Canadian and American police have few differences, but a critical one is the Canadian-only requirement of university degrees 3. With no other clearly-defined drivers of police culture differentiation across the border, we see that US police are probably 4-8x more lethal than Canadian police per capita So, since the police is clearly not about to properly train their people, let's not dismiss the value of a university degree as a filter, since it appears from a high level view that a university degree could serve to make a police officer 1/5th as likely to kill a citizen compared to a diploma. Will you propose a different reason why US police are so much deadlier, related to crime statistics or otherwise, or will you just continue to say "the police should train their people", not hold them to account for not training their people, and also excuse them for dropping educational requirements that served in lieu of that training?

augment003 3y ago
So, you are actually claiming that the reason American police shoot more people than Canadian police is because Canadian police have college degrees and American police do not? Even if your premises were correct, it wouldn’t be worth trying to debate that further. Hint: They aren’t. Do some research on what percentage of US police have college degrees, and what percentage of Canadian police have college degrees. It isn’t what you think. Also, you might want to look at the demographics of who police shoot in the US, and inform yourself of the differences between Canadian gun culture and the US.
- nawgz 3y ago
  > You might want to look at the demographics of who police shoot in the US Canadian police are also quite racist, but if you're arguing that "less educated American cops are more racist", that tracks pretty nicely with "please don't accept less educated cops" > you are actually claiming that the reason American police shoot more people than Canadian police is because Canadian police have college degrees and American police do not? Do you have a different explanation? > Do some research on what percentage of US police have college degrees According to [0], the breakdown of US officer max education of no college/college diploma/undergrad/grad is: * 49/20/25/5 > and what percentage of Canadian police have college degrees And, according to [1], for Canadian officers, it's: * 19/51/29/1.6 Quite a disparity. Especially when you consider sources like [2][3], which argue that: > "Studies have found that a small proportion of police officers – about 5% – produce most citizen complaints, and officers with a two-year degree are about half as likely to be in the high-rate complaint group" Overall, I believe there's lots of evidence suggesting more educated police are better police and citizens, and none suggesting the opposite - that less educated police are better. Across the board, Canadian police are significantly better educated, with the exception of less Graduated degrees. Across the board, Canadian police are less deadly to their citizens. Not a coincidence - go ahead and say some more stupid shit though. [0]: https://www.nu.edu/blog/law-enforcement-education https://www.nu.edu/blog/law-enforcement-education [1]: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2015001/article/14146-eng.htm https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2015001/article... [2]: https://theconversation.com/5-reasons-police-officers-should-have-college-degrees-140523 https://theconversation.com/5-reasons-police-officers-should... Source of the quote [3]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0047235210000048 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00472... Source of the info behind the quote, paywalled
  - augment003 3y ago
    [flagged]
fauxpause_ 3y ago
This butchering of statistical reasoning is so poor I have to assume it is a troll But in case it’s genuine, consider vast differences in gun ownership, homicide rate, and… honestly so many other things it’s just annoying to list them.
- nawgz 3y ago
  > consider vast differences I did. Gun ownership is about 32% of individuals in USA vs 25% of individuals in Canada. Homicide rate is about 2.5x higher in the US, which means US cops are outperforming this statistic vs US civilians. > so many other things It's not just annoying to list them, it's ridiculous; these countries are the exact same place. Across the board, everything you can think of has a lot of statistical homogeneity between these places. But Canadian cops are way better educated, and kill way less. Around the world, cops that are better educated kill way less. So why exactly are people excusing reductions in education requirements for police? It makes no sense. There's no supporting evidence that that's a good choice, and literal mountains showing that it's a bad one. This thread is bizarro world.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - augment003 3y ago
    Have you considered handguns as a factor?
    - nawgz 3y ago
      Handguns are the most interesting statistic here, with the US being a serious outlier (58%! vs 12% in Canada), it could be related I still don't see how you deny that more educated officers are less violent when I've made multiple links supporting that argument
      - augment003 3y ago
        [flagged]
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> Will you propose a different reason why US police are so much deadlier Guns. 1.2 per American, 0.35 per Canadian [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g...
- nawgz 3y ago
  That's not a very good argument - those guns are concentrated in the hands of about 32% of the US population [0], whereas in Canada it's probably closer to 25% [1]. [1] says "[t]he overall rate of firearm ownership is at least 241 per 1,000 population and is comparable to ownership rates in other countries where hunting is a significant activity" [0]: https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own... [1]: https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/csj-sjc/jsp-sjp/wd98_4-dt98_4/p2.html https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/csj-sjc/jsp-sjp/wd98_4-d...
  - augment003 3y ago
    Seems like you don’t know there’s a difference between handguns and hunting rifles.
giantg2 3y ago
Crime rates, prevalence of firearms, etc are major differences which could account for the discrepancy. Many police in the US are required to have 60 credits minimum in college education (associates degree equivalent). If you want to really look into this, legitimately, the best thing to do would be to compare use police to each other based on education. This is likely hard to do. However, state-level requirements and deaths could be compared between states with similar crime/murder rates.