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> 5 years Because Apple will forcibly kill it after that with incompatible software updates. Windows machines keep going until they physically break. But what

> 5 years Because Apple will forcibly kill it after that with incompatible software updates. Windows machines keep going until they physically break. But what everyone here is missing is that the consumer desktop/laptop market is dying itself. Soon it will only be for enterprise uses and gaming. Most people do all their computing through a phone or tablet. I know people who don't own a laptop.

sokoloff 3y ago
> Windows machines keep going until they physically break. That's interesting, as I just this month replaced the two kids' Dell 9020s with new PCs because the 9020s didn't support TPM 2.0, required by Windows 11. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/enable-tpm-2-0-on-your-pc-1fd5a332-360d-4f46-a1e7-ae6b0c90645c https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/enable-tpm-2-0-o... "Most PCs that have shipped in the last 5 years are capable of running Trusted Platform Module version 2.0 (TPM 2.0). TPM 2.0 is required to run Windows 11, as an important building block for security-related features. TPM 2.0 is used in Windows 11 for a number of features, including Windows Hello for identity protection and BitLocker for data protection." The 9 year old Dells were running just fine on Windows 10 (same as the 9 year old Air was on Catalina), but upgrading to the latest OS in both cases required a purchase.
- Eisenstein 3y ago
  I'm curious why you felt you needed to upgrade. To my knowledge Windows 11 doesn't do anything that Windows 10 cannot, except for support Intel e cores.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    They wanted to play Valorant with their friends; the anti-cheat code did not work on the 9020 on Windows 10; there was a limited amount of time I was willing to spend to find a cheaper workaround for a machine that’s 9 years old, with the prospect of doing the same again 6 months later. That was the actual driver, though this thread is about OS vendors forcing changes in order to run the latest OS, which is why I focused on the Win11 TPM2 requirements and mentioned the 9 year old Air running a still-patched Catalina.
    - smolder 3y ago
      I don't believe you needed to upgrade to windows 11 for valorant compatibility. You just needed to be on a recent build of windows 10, downloaded from windows update.
      - sokoloff 3y ago
        Maybe. We always have Windows Update turned on, so it was almost surely up-to-date and I spent a period of time over several different evenings trying to get this to work. Whatever error message came up when jumping into the gameplay part of the game led to the TPM issue being the root cause. Ultimately, we'd gotten our 4 years of value out of the Dells (4-ish years old when we bought them) and decided it was reasonable to replace them. To the point of this sub-thread, it's still an OS vendor forcing a purchase to run the latest OS. 9 year old Macbook running Catalina and 9 year old Dell running Win10, both unable to update to the latest OS seems very close the same to me.
- doikor 3y ago
  You still would have had ~3 years left before windows 10 goes EoL (consumer version)
- smolder 3y ago
  There's really no point to upgrading to win 11, especially if it's unsupported by your working PC.
zpeti 3y ago
This is the opposite of my experience. My wife still easily uses my old Mac that’s 8 years old. No performance issues. Most windows machines I had worked for around 3 years. 5 max.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  All my Windows machines from 2009 are still pretty much ok, while having been upgraded to Windows 10, came with Windows 7, and went through 8 and 8.1 as well.
raddan 3y ago
> Because Apple will forcibly kill it after that with incompatible software updates. Windows machines keep going until they physically break. This is demonstrably false. My wife continues to use my hand-me-down MacBook Air I bought in 2011. It was supported officially by the macOS until the most recent release, so she’s only one OS revision behind. I also recently retired a 2009 Mac Mini that I used 24/7 as a home server, only because the power supply failed. I used the G4 Mac I bought in 1999 as my daily driver (with some upgrades) until 2009. A decade or more of use is an incredible value, and I’ve done that multiple times with my Macs. Few of my PCs have had a useful life approaching that length of time (the closest was an Atom machine I ran for 7 years).
ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
> Because Apple will forcibly kill it after that with incompatible software updates. Um, I have a 2012 MacBook Air (11"), that I use for my low-end testing, and as a Zoom host. Works fine. Runs lots of software. It has to run Catalina (Mac OS 10.15), but Apple still pushes out security patches to it (I think we're up to 10.15.7).
- whstl 3y ago
  Same here. I still have the same, 2012 11" Air, and it's my "travel" laptop. It had a battery replacement a few years ago (and Apple did for free!), but other than being a Netflix machine, I still code low-level stuff and frontend in it.
  - jgwil2 3y ago
    How'd you get Apple to replace it for free? I thought all coverage would have expired...
    - whstl 3y ago
      It was in 2018, so after only six years. Five years ago, time flies... And the battery was swollen up, it actually damaged the trackpad. I went to the store to get an estimate, but they said they'd do it for free. I wonder if it was a recall. I didn't speak German that well back then so it might have gotten lost in translation. I recently also had issues with my Airpods Pro and they replaced for free, but they told me it was a recall.
      - sokoloff 3y ago
        I also had a swollen battery in a 2013 Macbook Pro that was eligible for a free replacement in 2018 or 2019 (I forget exactly when, but it was before the 2019 16" Macbooks came out). It was covered outside the normal warranty because of the swelling issue. Mine swelled to the point where the trackpad was slightly unreliable.
JKCalhoun 3y ago
I'm not sure "forcibly kill" is the adjective/verb I would have used. I have plenty of older Macs still running older versions of Mac OS. In some ways I kind of prefer them (because I still like the older Mac OSes). Maybe this is more of an indictment rather than a defense of Apple, but one machine I keep on an OS that's over 5 years old because it has the one version of Apple's Photos that didn't yet screw up the retouch tool. (And I use that tool exhaustively in retouching old family photos I scan in.)
- smolder 3y ago
  *adverb/verb
  - JKCalhoun 3y ago
    I'm embarrassed for that one.
nytesky 3y ago
My MacBook Pro was supported by OS updates for a DECADE. I have a MS SURFACE Laptop Gen 1 from 2018 I can’t update to Win 11 — and will EOL in 2026. That’s from the flagship microdot branded laptop.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
0zemp2c 3y ago
> Windows machines keep going until they physically break. which isn't good for Intel! cpus are expensive to develop...

sokoloff 3y ago

> Windows machines keep going until they physically break. That's interesting, as I just this month replaced the two kids' Dell 9020s with new PCs because the 9020s didn't support TPM 2.0, required by Windows 11. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/enable-tpm-2-0-on-your-pc-1fd5a332-360d-4f46-a1e7-ae6b0c90645c https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/enable-tpm-2-0-o... "Most PCs that have shipped in the last 5 years are capable of running Trusted Platform Module version 2.0 (TPM 2.0). TPM 2.0 is required to run Windows 11, as an important building block for security-related features. TPM 2.0 is used in Windows 11 for a number of features, including Windows Hello for identity protection and BitLocker for data protection." The 9 year old Dells were running just fine on Windows 10 (same as the 9 year old Air was on Catalina), but upgrading to the latest OS in both cases required a purchase.

Eisenstein 3y ago
I'm curious why you felt you needed to upgrade. To my knowledge Windows 11 doesn't do anything that Windows 10 cannot, except for support Intel e cores.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  They wanted to play Valorant with their friends; the anti-cheat code did not work on the 9020 on Windows 10; there was a limited amount of time I was willing to spend to find a cheaper workaround for a machine that’s 9 years old, with the prospect of doing the same again 6 months later. That was the actual driver, though this thread is about OS vendors forcing changes in order to run the latest OS, which is why I focused on the Win11 TPM2 requirements and mentioned the 9 year old Air running a still-patched Catalina.
  - smolder 3y ago
    I don't believe you needed to upgrade to windows 11 for valorant compatibility. You just needed to be on a recent build of windows 10, downloaded from windows update.
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      Maybe. We always have Windows Update turned on, so it was almost surely up-to-date and I spent a period of time over several different evenings trying to get this to work. Whatever error message came up when jumping into the gameplay part of the game led to the TPM issue being the root cause. Ultimately, we'd gotten our 4 years of value out of the Dells (4-ish years old when we bought them) and decided it was reasonable to replace them. To the point of this sub-thread, it's still an OS vendor forcing a purchase to run the latest OS. 9 year old Macbook running Catalina and 9 year old Dell running Win10, both unable to update to the latest OS seems very close the same to me.
doikor 3y ago
You still would have had ~3 years left before windows 10 goes EoL (consumer version)
smolder 3y ago
There's really no point to upgrading to win 11, especially if it's unsupported by your working PC.

zpeti 3y ago

This is the opposite of my experience. My wife still easily uses my old Mac that’s 8 years old. No performance issues. Most windows machines I had worked for around 3 years. 5 max.

pjmlp 3y ago
All my Windows machines from 2009 are still pretty much ok, while having been upgraded to Windows 10, came with Windows 7, and went through 8 and 8.1 as well.

raddan 3y ago

> Because Apple will forcibly kill it after that with incompatible software updates. Windows machines keep going until they physically break. This is demonstrably false. My wife continues to use my hand-me-down MacBook Air I bought in 2011. It was supported officially by the macOS until the most recent release, so she’s only one OS revision behind. I also recently retired a 2009 Mac Mini that I used 24/7 as a home server, only because the power supply failed. I used the G4 Mac I bought in 1999 as my daily driver (with some upgrades) until 2009. A decade or more of use is an incredible value, and I’ve done that multiple times with my Macs. Few of my PCs have had a useful life approaching that length of time (the closest was an Atom machine I ran for 7 years).

ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago

> Because Apple will forcibly kill it after that with incompatible software updates. Um, I have a 2012 MacBook Air (11"), that I use for my low-end testing, and as a Zoom host. Works fine. Runs lots of software. It has to run Catalina (Mac OS 10.15), but Apple still pushes out security patches to it (I think we're up to 10.15.7).

whstl 3y ago
Same here. I still have the same, 2012 11" Air, and it's my "travel" laptop. It had a battery replacement a few years ago (and Apple did for free!), but other than being a Netflix machine, I still code low-level stuff and frontend in it.
- jgwil2 3y ago
  How'd you get Apple to replace it for free? I thought all coverage would have expired...
  - whstl 3y ago
    It was in 2018, so after only six years. Five years ago, time flies... And the battery was swollen up, it actually damaged the trackpad. I went to the store to get an estimate, but they said they'd do it for free. I wonder if it was a recall. I didn't speak German that well back then so it might have gotten lost in translation. I recently also had issues with my Airpods Pro and they replaced for free, but they told me it was a recall.
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      I also had a swollen battery in a 2013 Macbook Pro that was eligible for a free replacement in 2018 or 2019 (I forget exactly when, but it was before the 2019 16" Macbooks came out). It was covered outside the normal warranty because of the swelling issue. Mine swelled to the point where the trackpad was slightly unreliable.

JKCalhoun 3y ago

I'm not sure "forcibly kill" is the adjective/verb I would have used. I have plenty of older Macs still running older versions of Mac OS. In some ways I kind of prefer them (because I still like the older Mac OSes). Maybe this is more of an indictment rather than a defense of Apple, but one machine I keep on an OS that's over 5 years old because it has the one version of Apple's Photos that didn't yet screw up the retouch tool. (And I use that tool exhaustively in retouching old family photos I scan in.)

smolder 3y ago
*adverb/verb
- JKCalhoun 3y ago
  I'm embarrassed for that one.

nytesky 3y ago

My MacBook Pro was supported by OS updates for a DECADE. I have a MS SURFACE Laptop Gen 1 from 2018 I can’t update to Win 11 — and will EOL in 2026. That’s from the flagship microdot branded laptop.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

0zemp2c 3y ago

> Windows machines keep going until they physically break. which isn't good for Intel! cpus are expensive to develop...