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Do you really want to be subjected to coding on a whiteboard? Edit: Instead of down-voting, why don't you explain to me why you would want to code on a whitebo

Do you really want to be subjected to coding on a whiteboard? Edit: Instead of down-voting, why don't you explain to me why you would want to code on a whiteboard when it's completely pointless. Might as well throw in some of those pointless questions like why are manholes round?

uberPhil 15y ago
do employers really expect candidates to right syntax accurate code on a whiteboard? I just always assumed that pseudo-code was appropriate. There are a lot of key strokes that my fingers know but my brain doesn't. It's very easy to get confused and thrown off your game.
- steffan 15y ago
  I don't necessarily expect candidates to have perfect syntax for a given language. (there's a presumption that they would be able to look up correct syntax in practice) At the same time, if you're unable to express your ideas in something close to real code, it is a signal that you're not sufficiently familiar with the language you chose.
  - thinkdevcode 15y ago
    OR you can hand the applicants a laptop and allow them to write code, which is what they are going to be doing on the job presumably. or does Google develop their applications on whiteboards now? I'm thinking a Minority Report-esque digital screen that programmers drag/drop with voice activation to "code". In all seriousness, I really don't get whiteboarding in interviews.
  - robrenaud 15y ago
    Excepting declaring funky things like arrays of pointers to functions in C, what competent developer doesn't know the syntax to his or her own best 2 or 3 languages? There is a difference between forgetting to put a semicolon at the end of a line (totally harmless on a whiteboard interview), and not knowing that semicolons end statements in C. Of course, not knowing say, part of the standard library, say the semantics of rand(), without a man page or Google search is much more excusable.
- ChuckMcM 15y ago
  do employers really expect candidates to right syntax accurate code on a whiteboard? Yes they do. I've still got my Google 'Hire Squad' t-shirt somewhere (when you get trained on how to do interviews at Google you used to get a t-shirt) And they expect the interviewer to transcribe what you write on the white board into your feedback so that the hiring committee can read your notes and know what you're talking about. You see the part you've missed here is that at Google, the person doing the interviewing has nothing at all with the person deciding if you should be hired. They interview you, using the techniques they were trained to use, they transcribe the whole thing like a court reporter, adding what color they can and a float between 0 and 4 (0 is 'run way', 4 is 'walks on water') And the then that goes into a 'packet' which gets sent to a hiring commitee where a different bunch of people read it (and the notes of everyone else) and they they decide if you are going to move forward in the process. Writing syntax accurate code on the white board is always a plus. Although one candidate on seeing the dozen different color markers, wrote both syntax accurate and colorized code. That was good for a chuckle (and strangely I think it got them points in the committee).
  - gcp 15y ago
    And the then that goes into a 'packet' which gets sent to a hiring commitee where a different bunch of people read it (and the notes of everyone else) and they they decide if you are going to move forward in the process. Doesn't most of the personality of the person get lost in this setup? I mean, hiring people purely on technical merits may sound fine, but I'm not sure if that makes for a very pleasant working environment.
    - jrockway 15y ago
      Compatibility with Google culture is something that the interviewers are trained to look for. You can't do an interview until you've worked at Google for more than 6 months, for this reason. I think the whole hiring committee removes a lot of biases that people may have and the end result, in my opinion, is a workplace that's a lot more diverse than any other I've been at.
- bstpierre 15y ago
  For whiteboard coding, I've always given interviewees their choice of programming language and have said, "Don't worry about syntax." For me it's more about how you approach the problem than whether you can spell correctly.
  - grecy 15y ago
    This is the most sensible reply here. I code in a variety of languages and every time I use .indexOf(), I can't remember if it's (needle, haystack) or (haystack, needle). Of course, my IDE shows me the correct way and I go with it in 0.3 seconds. On a whiteboard, if I were marked down for getting that the "wrong", I don't think I'd like to work for those kind of people anyway. I have no interest in memorizing the exact syntax of every standard library call in every language. When I can look it up almost instantaneously, my mental efforts are best spent elsewhere.
    - cadr 15y ago
      I think there is a difference between if you know the API the language provides and if you know the syntax of the language. I don't care if they can't remember order of parameters, or really even the name of the methods. But if you can't write syntactically correct code without an IDE, it seems like a problem.
- cadr 15y ago
  Probably depends on the employer. I've always asked people to write actual code, rather than pseudo-code, because I've found that a lot of pseudo-code I've gotten doesn't make sense or majorly glosses over things. (Think "and then a miracle occurs".) But I personally wouldn't dock a person if they screwed up the syntax on a whiteboard coding interview - I really use it more as a way to extend the conversation. I do have the bad habit of correcting syntax, though, because I find it too distracting once I see it.
deleted 15y ago
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knieveltech 15y ago
I'm with you on this one. I don't get the whole whiteboard code thing and I have no idea why you're getting downvoted. :/
jemfinch 15y ago
I work at Google. We write (diagrams and code) on whiteboards on a regular basis. We don't ask you to do it during an interview because we're sadists, we ask you to do it during an interview because working here, you will be doing it in the course of your ordinary work. Beyond that, someone who's able to code on a whiteboard will a fortiori be able to code with a keyboard and editor, and will typically code better with a keyboard and editor than someone who relies on the keyboard and editor to be able to code.
- varelse 15y ago
  I worked at google for four months. That wasn't my experience at all. I ended up on a team that despite working in the same office, barely spoke with each other, rarely ate lunch together, lost 1 member for each month I was there, and I didn't even have a 1 on 1 with my manager until 3 months in when I asked him why he was having 1 on 1s with everyone else, but not me. It was the singularly most soul-killing work environment I've ever encountered. What is this strange concept of whiteboard coding and collaboration of which you speak? The relevant job skill here would have been the willingness to do anything for the great pay and food. I wasn't and I had other employment options I chose after it became clear I would not be allowed to jump to another project anytime soon.
- thinkdevcode 15y ago
  > Beyond that, someone who's able to code on a whiteboard will a fortiori be able to code with a keyboard and editor, and will typically code better with a keyboard and editor than someone who relies on the keyboard and editor to be able to code. That is very subjective and I'd love to see some evidence of this.
- bad_user 15y ago
  ... will typically code better with a keyboard and editor than someone who relies on the keyboard and editor to be able to code The whiteboard sucks for problems for which you either don't know the solution, or for which you know the solution intuitively, but can't reproduce it line by line in successive order. In such cases people go back and forth, adding new functionality or correcting the existing lines to fit a new condition ... and this happens a lot for recursive algorithms. For instance I cannot reproduce the in-place QuickSort line by line, but I can work it out by evolving it from the basic idea, a process that takes a couple of minutes and a lot of corrections. So you're basically encouraging people that rote-learn solutions and that line above is bullshit.
jimbobimbo 15y ago
I can't downvote, but I fail to see what's the problem with "coding" on a whiteboard and why people are stressing out over it. When I interview people I ask them to write code on the piece of paper. All I'm looking for is a presence of a half-decent idea and them not using things like strlen() when iterating through a C-string in their doodles. The rest we will talk over. I never expect polished code on the whiteboard, it's always a starting point for a conversation that follows.
- Nick_C 15y ago
  > not using things like strlen() when iterating through a C-string At the risk of making myself look stupid, is that because of O(n) vs O(n^2) (should be testing for \0), or is there another reason I'm not picking up?
  - jimbobimbo 15y ago
    Yeah, it's just to see if a person understands that some basic pointer operations and that regular strings in C are "special" because of their \0 at the end.
csallen 15y ago
Not too long ago I would have agreed with you, but I've recently changed my mind. Coding on a whiteboard is not completely useless: 1. It's a good indicator of how much you know for simple problems. A few weeks ago I started helping a friend with a particular language and framework. He claimed to know it, having read several books on it. So I said great, go to the board and write a function that adds two numbers together. And he couldn't do it. Who knows, maybe he could have done it on a computer? Maybe he would have Google'd it quickly, or relied on code autocompletion, or the muscle memory from his fingers typing it, etc. But that's not what I wanted to know. Anyone who's written thousands of functions in a particular language could write a simple one like this on a wall, using paint, while hanging upside down. His inability to do so told me: he is not well-versed in this language. PERIOD. 2. You can practice. "So what", you protest. "Google isn't going to ask simple problems. They'll ask hard ones." And maybe they will. And maybe having to solve it in a foreign way really will fuck you up. But my question to you is: If you know you're interviewing at Google soon, why the hell would you allow whiteboard coding to remain foreign to you? If you suck with whiteboards and you care at all about getting the job, then buy one and practice solving problems on it. Why would Google want someone who doesn't care enough to prepare for their interview? It's not that hard of a skill to pick up. And I daresay it will make you a better, easier-to-communicate-with programmer.
- thinkdevcode 15y ago
  > 1. It's a good indicator of how much you know for simple problems. Google doesn't solve simple problems. > 2. You can practice. Maybe if the interviewee was still in college they could "practice" coding on a whiteboard, but considering they may have other obligations like family and work they probably won't have time to practice such a pointless skill. Personally, I wouldn't need to practice in the first place as I interview extremely well and could easily code on a whiteboard, I just find it antiquated and pointless to do so which was the reason for my comment - not because I am bad at it.
  - csallen 15y ago
    Google doesn't solve simple problems. Yes, but that doesn't mean you don't need to know how to solve them. If you can't solve simple stuff, you won't be able to solve hard stuff that depends on knowing the simple stuff cold. they may have other obligations like family and work they probably won't have time to practice such a pointless skill. Yes, that's a possibility. But once again, if you're Google, you're getting 10s of thousands of applications a week. You can afford to set the bar as high as possible. Every Google employee I know regularly works 10+ hour days there, and sometimes does work at home, too. If you have two applicants of similar skill, but one has more free time to devote to your company, it's obvious who you'll prefer.
jrockway 15y ago
Yes. I like it. Whiteboard coding is good because interview questions are not about specific 100% solutions to complex real-world problems like programming usually is. Interview questions are about general problems whose solutions will fit nicely onto a whiteboard. You lose the ability to get realtime syntax highlighting, but you gain the ability to have multiple trains of thought, the ability to draw diagrams and arbitrary symbols, and the ability to point at things as you explain your thoughts to the interviewer. Do you really enjoy it when someone comes over to your laptop to ask you a question about code? Now imagine that for four hours in a row. That's what a laptop interview would be like. When I was interviewing at Google, someone asked me a question that required me to remember some math. I did not remember it, but I knew how to derive the answer I needed. So I went to another whiteboard, talked my way through the sub-problem while drawing some math symbols, and then transferred the answer back to the original problem, halfway completed on a different whiteboard. Try doing that while hunched over your laptop. I agree that this process is nothing like the job you're interviewing for. That's because it's an interview, not the job. We try to get a picture of who you are and what you know in a few hours, and that's just not enough time to let you loose with a laptop to see how you approach real-world problems. Not to mention, real world problems don't often involve much "computer science" knowledge. But you still need to know that so you can confidently attack problems that venture into that area. And largely, the process works. There are very few programmers at Google that can't program. If I have an idea, I can explain it to pretty much anyone, and get good feedback. At other jobs I've had, I've had to explain thing like arrays to coworkers. That means I'm not going to get any feedback on my complex idea, and that sucks. Google is not like that, because we filter those people out at the interview.
- rimantas 15y ago
  > Try doing that while hunched over your laptop. I just take a pen and a piece of paper.
matwood 15y ago
Coding syntactically correct code on a whiteboard is a waste of time. Drawing pictures, diagrams, and pseudocode while trying to solve a problem with others is a great way to get collaborative work done.
dblohm7 15y ago
Once upon a time I was working with a psychologist who wanted me to do a take-home exercise. Knowing that I was a software developer and an excellent typist, she insisted that I perform the exercise while writing by hand. She said that it was because I would be using a different part of my brain when handwriting than if I were typing. Which brings us back to the whiteboard interview. I ask: If I am correctly interpreting what the psychologist said, why force interview candidates to use their brains differently than they normally would while coding?

uberPhil 15y ago

do employers really expect candidates to right syntax accurate code on a whiteboard? I just always assumed that pseudo-code was appropriate. There are a lot of key strokes that my fingers know but my brain doesn't. It's very easy to get confused and thrown off your game.

steffan 15y ago
I don't necessarily expect candidates to have perfect syntax for a given language. (there's a presumption that they would be able to look up correct syntax in practice) At the same time, if you're unable to express your ideas in something close to real code, it is a signal that you're not sufficiently familiar with the language you chose.
- thinkdevcode 15y ago
  OR you can hand the applicants a laptop and allow them to write code, which is what they are going to be doing on the job presumably. or does Google develop their applications on whiteboards now? I'm thinking a Minority Report-esque digital screen that programmers drag/drop with voice activation to "code". In all seriousness, I really don't get whiteboarding in interviews.
- robrenaud 15y ago
  Excepting declaring funky things like arrays of pointers to functions in C, what competent developer doesn't know the syntax to his or her own best 2 or 3 languages? There is a difference between forgetting to put a semicolon at the end of a line (totally harmless on a whiteboard interview), and not knowing that semicolons end statements in C. Of course, not knowing say, part of the standard library, say the semantics of rand(), without a man page or Google search is much more excusable.
ChuckMcM 15y ago
do employers really expect candidates to right syntax accurate code on a whiteboard? Yes they do. I've still got my Google 'Hire Squad' t-shirt somewhere (when you get trained on how to do interviews at Google you used to get a t-shirt) And they expect the interviewer to transcribe what you write on the white board into your feedback so that the hiring committee can read your notes and know what you're talking about. You see the part you've missed here is that at Google, the person doing the interviewing has nothing at all with the person deciding if you should be hired. They interview you, using the techniques they were trained to use, they transcribe the whole thing like a court reporter, adding what color they can and a float between 0 and 4 (0 is 'run way', 4 is 'walks on water') And the then that goes into a 'packet' which gets sent to a hiring commitee where a different bunch of people read it (and the notes of everyone else) and they they decide if you are going to move forward in the process. Writing syntax accurate code on the white board is always a plus. Although one candidate on seeing the dozen different color markers, wrote both syntax accurate and colorized code. That was good for a chuckle (and strangely I think it got them points in the committee).
- gcp 15y ago
  And the then that goes into a 'packet' which gets sent to a hiring commitee where a different bunch of people read it (and the notes of everyone else) and they they decide if you are going to move forward in the process. Doesn't most of the personality of the person get lost in this setup? I mean, hiring people purely on technical merits may sound fine, but I'm not sure if that makes for a very pleasant working environment.
  - jrockway 15y ago
    Compatibility with Google culture is something that the interviewers are trained to look for. You can't do an interview until you've worked at Google for more than 6 months, for this reason. I think the whole hiring committee removes a lot of biases that people may have and the end result, in my opinion, is a workplace that's a lot more diverse than any other I've been at.
bstpierre 15y ago
For whiteboard coding, I've always given interviewees their choice of programming language and have said, "Don't worry about syntax." For me it's more about how you approach the problem than whether you can spell correctly.
- grecy 15y ago
  This is the most sensible reply here. I code in a variety of languages and every time I use .indexOf(), I can't remember if it's (needle, haystack) or (haystack, needle). Of course, my IDE shows me the correct way and I go with it in 0.3 seconds. On a whiteboard, if I were marked down for getting that the "wrong", I don't think I'd like to work for those kind of people anyway. I have no interest in memorizing the exact syntax of every standard library call in every language. When I can look it up almost instantaneously, my mental efforts are best spent elsewhere.
  - cadr 15y ago
    I think there is a difference between if you know the API the language provides and if you know the syntax of the language. I don't care if they can't remember order of parameters, or really even the name of the methods. But if you can't write syntactically correct code without an IDE, it seems like a problem.
cadr 15y ago
Probably depends on the employer. I've always asked people to write actual code, rather than pseudo-code, because I've found that a lot of pseudo-code I've gotten doesn't make sense or majorly glosses over things. (Think "and then a miracle occurs".) But I personally wouldn't dock a person if they screwed up the syntax on a whiteboard coding interview - I really use it more as a way to extend the conversation. I do have the bad habit of correcting syntax, though, because I find it too distracting once I see it.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

knieveltech 15y ago

I'm with you on this one. I don't get the whole whiteboard code thing and I have no idea why you're getting downvoted. :/

jemfinch 15y ago

I work at Google. We write (diagrams and code) on whiteboards on a regular basis. We don't ask you to do it during an interview because we're sadists, we ask you to do it during an interview because working here, you will be doing it in the course of your ordinary work. Beyond that, someone who's able to code on a whiteboard will a fortiori be able to code with a keyboard and editor, and will typically code better with a keyboard and editor than someone who relies on the keyboard and editor to be able to code.

varelse 15y ago
I worked at google for four months. That wasn't my experience at all. I ended up on a team that despite working in the same office, barely spoke with each other, rarely ate lunch together, lost 1 member for each month I was there, and I didn't even have a 1 on 1 with my manager until 3 months in when I asked him why he was having 1 on 1s with everyone else, but not me. It was the singularly most soul-killing work environment I've ever encountered. What is this strange concept of whiteboard coding and collaboration of which you speak? The relevant job skill here would have been the willingness to do anything for the great pay and food. I wasn't and I had other employment options I chose after it became clear I would not be allowed to jump to another project anytime soon.
thinkdevcode 15y ago
> Beyond that, someone who's able to code on a whiteboard will a fortiori be able to code with a keyboard and editor, and will typically code better with a keyboard and editor than someone who relies on the keyboard and editor to be able to code. That is very subjective and I'd love to see some evidence of this.
bad_user 15y ago
... will typically code better with a keyboard and editor than someone who relies on the keyboard and editor to be able to code The whiteboard sucks for problems for which you either don't know the solution, or for which you know the solution intuitively, but can't reproduce it line by line in successive order. In such cases people go back and forth, adding new functionality or correcting the existing lines to fit a new condition ... and this happens a lot for recursive algorithms. For instance I cannot reproduce the in-place QuickSort line by line, but I can work it out by evolving it from the basic idea, a process that takes a couple of minutes and a lot of corrections. So you're basically encouraging people that rote-learn solutions and that line above is bullshit.

jimbobimbo 15y ago

I can't downvote, but I fail to see what's the problem with "coding" on a whiteboard and why people are stressing out over it. When I interview people I ask them to write code on the piece of paper. All I'm looking for is a presence of a half-decent idea and them not using things like strlen() when iterating through a C-string in their doodles. The rest we will talk over. I never expect polished code on the whiteboard, it's always a starting point for a conversation that follows.

Nick_C 15y ago
> not using things like strlen() when iterating through a C-string At the risk of making myself look stupid, is that because of O(n) vs O(n^2) (should be testing for \0), or is there another reason I'm not picking up?
- jimbobimbo 15y ago
  Yeah, it's just to see if a person understands that some basic pointer operations and that regular strings in C are "special" because of their \0 at the end.

csallen 15y ago

Not too long ago I would have agreed with you, but I've recently changed my mind. Coding on a whiteboard is not completely useless: 1. It's a good indicator of how much you know for simple problems. A few weeks ago I started helping a friend with a particular language and framework. He claimed to know it, having read several books on it. So I said great, go to the board and write a function that adds two numbers together. And he couldn't do it. Who knows, maybe he could have done it on a computer? Maybe he would have Google'd it quickly, or relied on code autocompletion, or the muscle memory from his fingers typing it, etc. But that's not what I wanted to know. Anyone who's written thousands of functions in a particular language could write a simple one like this on a wall, using paint, while hanging upside down. His inability to do so told me: he is not well-versed in this language. PERIOD. 2. You can practice. "So what", you protest. "Google isn't going to ask simple problems. They'll ask hard ones." And maybe they will. And maybe having to solve it in a foreign way really will fuck you up. But my question to you is: If you know you're interviewing at Google soon, why the hell would you allow whiteboard coding to remain foreign to you? If you suck with whiteboards and you care at all about getting the job, then buy one and practice solving problems on it. Why would Google want someone who doesn't care enough to prepare for their interview? It's not that hard of a skill to pick up. And I daresay it will make you a better, easier-to-communicate-with programmer.

thinkdevcode 15y ago
> 1. It's a good indicator of how much you know for simple problems. Google doesn't solve simple problems. > 2. You can practice. Maybe if the interviewee was still in college they could "practice" coding on a whiteboard, but considering they may have other obligations like family and work they probably won't have time to practice such a pointless skill. Personally, I wouldn't need to practice in the first place as I interview extremely well and could easily code on a whiteboard, I just find it antiquated and pointless to do so which was the reason for my comment - not because I am bad at it.
- csallen 15y ago
  Google doesn't solve simple problems. Yes, but that doesn't mean you don't need to know how to solve them. If you can't solve simple stuff, you won't be able to solve hard stuff that depends on knowing the simple stuff cold. they may have other obligations like family and work they probably won't have time to practice such a pointless skill. Yes, that's a possibility. But once again, if you're Google, you're getting 10s of thousands of applications a week. You can afford to set the bar as high as possible. Every Google employee I know regularly works 10+ hour days there, and sometimes does work at home, too. If you have two applicants of similar skill, but one has more free time to devote to your company, it's obvious who you'll prefer.

jrockway 15y ago

Yes. I like it. Whiteboard coding is good because interview questions are not about specific 100% solutions to complex real-world problems like programming usually is. Interview questions are about general problems whose solutions will fit nicely onto a whiteboard. You lose the ability to get realtime syntax highlighting, but you gain the ability to have multiple trains of thought, the ability to draw diagrams and arbitrary symbols, and the ability to point at things as you explain your thoughts to the interviewer. Do you really enjoy it when someone comes over to your laptop to ask you a question about code? Now imagine that for four hours in a row. That's what a laptop interview would be like. When I was interviewing at Google, someone asked me a question that required me to remember some math. I did not remember it, but I knew how to derive the answer I needed. So I went to another whiteboard, talked my way through the sub-problem while drawing some math symbols, and then transferred the answer back to the original problem, halfway completed on a different whiteboard. Try doing that while hunched over your laptop. I agree that this process is nothing like the job you're interviewing for. That's because it's an interview, not the job. We try to get a picture of who you are and what you know in a few hours, and that's just not enough time to let you loose with a laptop to see how you approach real-world problems. Not to mention, real world problems don't often involve much "computer science" knowledge. But you still need to know that so you can confidently attack problems that venture into that area. And largely, the process works. There are very few programmers at Google that can't program. If I have an idea, I can explain it to pretty much anyone, and get good feedback. At other jobs I've had, I've had to explain thing like arrays to coworkers. That means I'm not going to get any feedback on my complex idea, and that sucks. Google is not like that, because we filter those people out at the interview.

rimantas 15y ago
> Try doing that while hunched over your laptop. I just take a pen and a piece of paper.

matwood 15y ago

Coding syntactically correct code on a whiteboard is a waste of time. Drawing pictures, diagrams, and pseudocode while trying to solve a problem with others is a great way to get collaborative work done.

dblohm7 15y ago

Once upon a time I was working with a psychologist who wanted me to do a take-home exercise. Knowing that I was a software developer and an excellent typist, she insisted that I perform the exercise while writing by hand. She said that it was because I would be using a different part of my brain when handwriting than if I were typing. Which brings us back to the whiteboard interview. I ask: If I am correctly interpreting what the psychologist said, why force interview candidates to use their brains differently than they normally would while coding?