5 ms·

Why? Can you present a coherent argument against enabling flash that isn't just "I don't want to use it so nobody else should be allowed to"?

estel 15y ago
Isn't there an extent to which forced deprecation of software like Flash might hasten the uptake of newer technologies like HTML5? Fortunately iOS already did most of this on its own. But reduced support can always encourage more websites to move to HTML5.
- SquareWheel 15y ago
  As much as I'd like to see HTML5 pushed for interactive content, it's not there yet. I can tell whenever Youtube gives me the HTML player because everything breaks. Apple's webplayer is even worse. I think the only good experience I've had with an HTML5 video player is on The Verge, and half the comments complain about it so it probably just works well on Chrome. I think Flash still has a place in the current web, while we work on getting HTML up to snuff.
  - recursive 15y ago
    Funny you should mention it. While we're talking anecdotes, youtube's flash player is more likely to crash my browser than the html one.
- huggyface 15y ago
  Fortunately iOS already did most of this on its own. By pushing everyone to apps? iOS is no shepherd in the movement to standardized, cross-platform solutions. It is probably the greatest setback the open web has faced in over a decade.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - ugh 15y ago
    Kind of hard to believe, given that iOS was and still is the only mobile OS with a browser that does not suck. Even Android has only been catching up. iOS and Android have been an unambiguous blessing for the open web on mobile devices. I don't even understand what you want Apple to do. Not allow third party developers to make native apps for iOS? Apple did that and nobody liked it. I can't imagine that you think this is a realistic solution.
    - huggyface 15y ago
      Kind of hard to believe, given that iOS was and still is the only mobile OS with a browser that does not suck. Yeah, I see John Gruber likes to say that. It is, so to speak, horse shit. I apologize for the language but it's all that satisfactorily delivers my opinion on that. Have you ever actually used the Android browser?
      - ugh 15y ago
        Yes, and it sucked. I have been quite happy with the browser that comes with ICS, so I would say there's parity now. But nice job ignoring the actual point I was making.
        huggyface 15y ago
        The point you were making was that the iOS browser is so superior to its competitors that it demonstrated Apple's commitment to the web. Only the Android browser doesn't actually suck. I've never, ever heard someone actually describe why it sucks, they just repeat that going meme and smile and nod at each other. Yet despite all of its CSS chrome, many mobile dev projects abandon the effort and switch to an app after facing the less sexy, but deadly deficiencies in the iOS browser. People are sure the iOS browser is great because they never actually use it. Instead they use apps.
        ugh 15y ago
        Huh? Why are you so sure that people don't use the iOS browser? I use an RSS reader and the Twitter app (both pf which I also use on my PC). The rest (and majority of my time) on iOS devices I spend in a browser and I love it. The web experience on my iPad is awesome. I just don't see how Apple is hindering or sabotaging the open web with iOS. Sure, people like apps, but that's not unique to iOS, that's also true for Android. It's a property of native apps, not a property of Apple pushing native apps.
  - bni 15y ago
    There will always be native code in one form or another. It used to be Windows applications now it is iOS apps. The web will coexist and thrive in parallell to this.
  - Turing_Machine 15y ago
    Safari and Chrome are both based on Webkit. SVN here: http://www.webkit.org/building/checkout.html http://www.webkit.org/building/checkout.html Apple's original plan was that third-party stuff would be in web app form. They took tons of flak from the developer community over that, so no, they didn't "push everyone to apps".
    - huggyface 15y ago
      Safari and Chrome are both based on Webkit. And webkit derived from KHTML (loosely), the project coming to public attention as Apple came under criticism for taking but not giving. Apple's original plan And Google's original plan was don't be evil. I would never -- even if I ever got some screwed up idea that I need to defend a corporation online -- reference that to defend their honour.
      - Turing_Machine 15y ago
        I'm not "defending their hono[u]r". I'm pointing out that they didn't "push everyone to apps", which is a fact.
- hahaiamatwork 15y ago
  I agree, but as another poster said, the technology simply isn't there. I haven't tested an iPhone 4S yet, but I did develop some javascript canvas based animations for some time, and the performance was extremely poor. The old benchmark I used was http://themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2010/03/22/ http://themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2010/03/22/ I believe, and I have yet to see HTML outperform flash on it.
  - estel 15y ago
    I agree too (though I can't remember the last time I myself had to use Flash on my phone); but it doesn't feel like an entirely unreasonable argument for not supporting Flash.
  - cmf028 15y ago
    Hardware acceleration for Canvas and SVG makes a huge difference in this case. Firefox 4+ (Windows Vista/7), IE9+ (Windows Vista/7), Chrome(I forget which version)+ (All Windows, Mac Soon), and Safari 5+ (OSX) all support hardware acceleration of Canvas. Opera development builds support hardware acceleration too. Chrome Beta on Android supports hardware acceleration of Canvas. iPhone 4S also supports hardware acceleration of Canvas. Hardware accelerated Canvas completely destroys Flash on the Desktop. A lot has changed in `~2 years Not to mention that modern JS engines outperform even statically typed AS3 code. Of course, if you don't have a supported graphics card for your computer, you won't get hardware acceleration. However, I imagine this won't be a problem on Mobile once Android 4.0 eclipses other versions of Android since Hardware acceleration is a standard Android 4.0 feature.
mberning 15y ago
Coherent argument? Sucks battery Poor usability on touch interfaces Memory hog Buggy, leads to browser crashes
- ThomPete 15y ago
  Poor usability? What does that even mean in this context? Flash allow you to create any kind of interface and experience you want.
  - Zirro 15y ago
    "Flash allow you to create any kind of interface and experience you want." Exactly, and that's the problem. It means that it behaves the way the author wants it to, ignoring the users preferences. That is poor usability. I have lots of small annoyances with Flash, take for example the inability to auto-scroll across it (at least in Firefox on OS X). This would not be the case with normal content.
    - ThomPete 15y ago
      So does HTML+CSS+JS I still have a hard time seeing the point here
      - gsa 15y ago
        With Flash, the user or the developer has no choice if scroll and keyboard shortcuts break. With JS+HTML+CSS, the user has a choice to force the developer to fix their code (and a developer to not write code which breaks browser stuff).
        talmand 15y ago
        How exactly does a user "force" a developer to fix their code when they use HS+HTML+CSS?
        15y ago
narkee 15y ago
Replace Flash with IE6 and I think you'll get a clearer understanding of where people are coming from.
- hahaiamatwork 15y ago
  My argument isn't 'Flash is great'. It's 'Flash works and I see no need to break a bunch of websites when the replacements are not yet up to the task'
nachteilig 15y ago
To be honest, after I had used iPhone for a while I preferred the flash-less web so much that I also disabled the plugin on my computer. I haven't really missed it at all, and the web experience has been much better for me.
nyellin 15y ago
Flash is a proprietary standard with one major implementation, HTML 5 is an open standard supported by multiple vendors. Accessibility (i.e. for the blind) used to be an issue, but Wikipedia claims that has mostly been fixed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_HTML5_and_Flash#Accessibility_issues_and_search_engines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_HTML5_and_Flash#A...
- Jimmie 15y ago
  Flash may be owned but it is released as open source. The language is completely open, there is an open source compiler and an open source VM. HTML5, as it is, is a pain in the butt because of multiple vendors supporting subsets of it. I still have to fall back to flash to play mp3s in Firefox. HTML5 will be great someday, but it's not today and probably not soon.
ryandvm 15y ago
Because half the Flash "enabled" pages I load on my Android phone end up crashed, lagging, or completely borking the touch controls. About the only thing Flash ever works for on my phone are simple ads or video players (with unresponsive playback controls). That said, not wanting to use something is certainly a fine reason to not want it installed. For example, I don't want to use closed media formats. I also don't want others to use closed media formats because I believe it to be detrimental to long term archival and sharing.

estel 15y ago

Isn't there an extent to which forced deprecation of software like Flash might hasten the uptake of newer technologies like HTML5? Fortunately iOS already did most of this on its own. But reduced support can always encourage more websites to move to HTML5.

SquareWheel 15y ago
As much as I'd like to see HTML5 pushed for interactive content, it's not there yet. I can tell whenever Youtube gives me the HTML player because everything breaks. Apple's webplayer is even worse. I think the only good experience I've had with an HTML5 video player is on The Verge, and half the comments complain about it so it probably just works well on Chrome. I think Flash still has a place in the current web, while we work on getting HTML up to snuff.
- recursive 15y ago
  Funny you should mention it. While we're talking anecdotes, youtube's flash player is more likely to crash my browser than the html one.
huggyface 15y ago
Fortunately iOS already did most of this on its own. By pushing everyone to apps? iOS is no shepherd in the movement to standardized, cross-platform solutions. It is probably the greatest setback the open web has faced in over a decade.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- ugh 15y ago
  Kind of hard to believe, given that iOS was and still is the only mobile OS with a browser that does not suck. Even Android has only been catching up. iOS and Android have been an unambiguous blessing for the open web on mobile devices. I don't even understand what you want Apple to do. Not allow third party developers to make native apps for iOS? Apple did that and nobody liked it. I can't imagine that you think this is a realistic solution.
  - huggyface 15y ago
    Kind of hard to believe, given that iOS was and still is the only mobile OS with a browser that does not suck. Yeah, I see John Gruber likes to say that. It is, so to speak, horse shit. I apologize for the language but it's all that satisfactorily delivers my opinion on that. Have you ever actually used the Android browser?
    - ugh 15y ago
      Yes, and it sucked. I have been quite happy with the browser that comes with ICS, so I would say there's parity now. But nice job ignoring the actual point I was making.
      - huggyface 15y ago
        The point you were making was that the iOS browser is so superior to its competitors that it demonstrated Apple's commitment to the web. Only the Android browser doesn't actually suck. I've never, ever heard someone actually describe why it sucks, they just repeat that going meme and smile and nod at each other. Yet despite all of its CSS chrome, many mobile dev projects abandon the effort and switch to an app after facing the less sexy, but deadly deficiencies in the iOS browser. People are sure the iOS browser is great because they never actually use it. Instead they use apps.
        ugh 15y ago
        Huh? Why are you so sure that people don't use the iOS browser? I use an RSS reader and the Twitter app (both pf which I also use on my PC). The rest (and majority of my time) on iOS devices I spend in a browser and I love it. The web experience on my iPad is awesome. I just don't see how Apple is hindering or sabotaging the open web with iOS. Sure, people like apps, but that's not unique to iOS, that's also true for Android. It's a property of native apps, not a property of Apple pushing native apps.
- bni 15y ago
  There will always be native code in one form or another. It used to be Windows applications now it is iOS apps. The web will coexist and thrive in parallell to this.
- Turing_Machine 15y ago
  Safari and Chrome are both based on Webkit. SVN here: http://www.webkit.org/building/checkout.html http://www.webkit.org/building/checkout.html Apple's original plan was that third-party stuff would be in web app form. They took tons of flak from the developer community over that, so no, they didn't "push everyone to apps".
  - huggyface 15y ago
    Safari and Chrome are both based on Webkit. And webkit derived from KHTML (loosely), the project coming to public attention as Apple came under criticism for taking but not giving. Apple's original plan And Google's original plan was don't be evil. I would never -- even if I ever got some screwed up idea that I need to defend a corporation online -- reference that to defend their honour.
    - Turing_Machine 15y ago
      I'm not "defending their hono[u]r". I'm pointing out that they didn't "push everyone to apps", which is a fact.
hahaiamatwork 15y ago
I agree, but as another poster said, the technology simply isn't there. I haven't tested an iPhone 4S yet, but I did develop some javascript canvas based animations for some time, and the performance was extremely poor. The old benchmark I used was http://themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2010/03/22/ http://themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2010/03/22/ I believe, and I have yet to see HTML outperform flash on it.
- estel 15y ago
  I agree too (though I can't remember the last time I myself had to use Flash on my phone); but it doesn't feel like an entirely unreasonable argument for not supporting Flash.
- cmf028 15y ago
  Hardware acceleration for Canvas and SVG makes a huge difference in this case. Firefox 4+ (Windows Vista/7), IE9+ (Windows Vista/7), Chrome(I forget which version)+ (All Windows, Mac Soon), and Safari 5+ (OSX) all support hardware acceleration of Canvas. Opera development builds support hardware acceleration too. Chrome Beta on Android supports hardware acceleration of Canvas. iPhone 4S also supports hardware acceleration of Canvas. Hardware accelerated Canvas completely destroys Flash on the Desktop. A lot has changed in `~2 years Not to mention that modern JS engines outperform even statically typed AS3 code. Of course, if you don't have a supported graphics card for your computer, you won't get hardware acceleration. However, I imagine this won't be a problem on Mobile once Android 4.0 eclipses other versions of Android since Hardware acceleration is a standard Android 4.0 feature.

mberning 15y ago

Coherent argument? Sucks battery Poor usability on touch interfaces Memory hog Buggy, leads to browser crashes

ThomPete 15y ago
Poor usability? What does that even mean in this context? Flash allow you to create any kind of interface and experience you want.
- Zirro 15y ago
  "Flash allow you to create any kind of interface and experience you want." Exactly, and that's the problem. It means that it behaves the way the author wants it to, ignoring the users preferences. That is poor usability. I have lots of small annoyances with Flash, take for example the inability to auto-scroll across it (at least in Firefox on OS X). This would not be the case with normal content.
  - ThomPete 15y ago
    So does HTML+CSS+JS I still have a hard time seeing the point here
    - gsa 15y ago
      With Flash, the user or the developer has no choice if scroll and keyboard shortcuts break. With JS+HTML+CSS, the user has a choice to force the developer to fix their code (and a developer to not write code which breaks browser stuff).
      - talmand 15y ago
        How exactly does a user "force" a developer to fix their code when they use HS+HTML+CSS?
        15y ago

narkee 15y ago

Replace Flash with IE6 and I think you'll get a clearer understanding of where people are coming from.

hahaiamatwork 15y ago
My argument isn't 'Flash is great'. It's 'Flash works and I see no need to break a bunch of websites when the replacements are not yet up to the task'

nachteilig 15y ago

To be honest, after I had used iPhone for a while I preferred the flash-less web so much that I also disabled the plugin on my computer. I haven't really missed it at all, and the web experience has been much better for me.

nyellin 15y ago

Flash is a proprietary standard with one major implementation, HTML 5 is an open standard supported by multiple vendors. Accessibility (i.e. for the blind) used to be an issue, but Wikipedia claims that has mostly been fixed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_HTML5_and_Flash#Accessibility_issues_and_search_engines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_HTML5_and_Flash#A...

Jimmie 15y ago
Flash may be owned but it is released as open source. The language is completely open, there is an open source compiler and an open source VM. HTML5, as it is, is a pain in the butt because of multiple vendors supporting subsets of it. I still have to fall back to flash to play mp3s in Firefox. HTML5 will be great someday, but it's not today and probably not soon.

ryandvm 15y ago

Because half the Flash "enabled" pages I load on my Android phone end up crashed, lagging, or completely borking the touch controls. About the only thing Flash ever works for on my phone are simple ads or video players (with unresponsive playback controls). That said, not wanting to use something is certainly a fine reason to not want it installed. For example, I don't want to use closed media formats. I also don't want others to use closed media formats because I believe it to be detrimental to long term archival and sharing.