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> But I do not feel this way about this case. Why? Because the leak did not expose government malfeasance, and therefore wasn't in the interest of the American

> But I do not feel this way about this case. Why? Because the leak did not expose government malfeasance, and therefore wasn't in the interest of the American people. Ordinary anti-espionage rules can and should apply. It does confirm that Ukraine is losing the war badly, I think it was like 7 Ukrainians dying for 1 Russian. With that knowledge, it seems that continuing to fund this war with a blank check to Ukraine is not in the interests of the American people. So I feel that this leak was a good thing, from the perspective of the American people, especially if it ends the US funding of this war.

cannabis_sam 3y ago
>It does confirm that Ukraine is losing the war badly, I think it was like 7 Ukrainians dying for 1 Russian. Are you referring to the picture with 17k russians vs 71k ukrainians? I thought that was the one that had been edited/falsified…
- ihatepython 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - cannabis_sam 3y ago
    No, I’ve seen two versions of that image. The one with 71/17 looked most obviously edited to me, but I was asking to get any more substantial confirmation either way.
polio 3y ago
I don't see how the ratio of dead Ukrainians to dead Russians is relevant to the utility of winning this war. It can also be construed as an argument for increased funding, because the Ukrainians are losing so badly. In my view, curtailing Russian expansion is the point of the war, and Ukrainian lives are unfortunately one cost of doing so. It's important that Ukrainians are participating in the war of their own volition; the US is not paying Ukrainians to join the battle, unlike the scenario with the ANA in Afghanistan. Even if the leak produces good outcomes, it should still be prosecuted as espionage, since there was no good faith motivation for the leak.
- ihatepython 3y ago
  The war itself is illegal. Congress never authorized the war. Exposing illegal activity of the US government should not be a crime.
  - clouddrover 3y ago
    > The war itself is illegal Yes, Russia's invasion of Ukraine is illegal. It's a war of choice waged for reason no better than Putin's vanity. It hasn't helped Russia and it certainly hasn't helped Ukraine. Fortunately, it is within Russia's power to end the war tomorrow. All Russia needs to do is leave Ukrainian territory, return relocated Ukrainian citizens, start paying reparations, and begin the process of extraditing war criminals so they can be tried.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > Congress never authorized the war. The US aid to Ukraine that is the relation of the US government to the war is, in fact, authorized by Congress. See, e.g., the Ukraine Democracy Defense Lend-Lease Act of 2022 (PL 117-118).
clouddrover 3y ago
> It does confirm that Ukraine is losing the war badly, I think it was like 7 Ukrainians dying for 1 Russian. No: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/13/world/europe/ukraine-russia-prisoners.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/13/world/europe/ukraine-russ... https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/03/14/did-the-ukrainian-army-kill-1100-russians-in-a-single-day-its-certainly-possible/?sh=157af7757b5c https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/03/14/did-the-ukr... https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-war-already-with-up-354000-casualties-likely-drag-us-documents-2023-04-12/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-war-already-wit... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65260672 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65260672 https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/04/14/leaked-documents-russian-spetsnaz/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/04/14/... > With that knowledge What you call "knowledge" here is, in fact, just lies. It's interesting how susceptible people have become to falsehoods in the internet age. People get told what they want to hear and they believe it wholeheartedly, not matter how untrue it is.
- ihatepython 3y ago
  None of the sources you listed are credible.
  - clouddrover 3y ago
    Sorry, but the factual world does not correspond to your fantasy world. You're going to have to grow up and learn to see the world beyond your computer screen. You've become internet siloed. It's rotting you.
  - javajosh 3y ago
    Out of curiosity, what do you think credibility is? How do you think it is acquired? Do you think you have credibility? If so, why? Personally I don't find it odd that someone might reject "mainstream reality" as not credible. But what is odd are the things they often choose to replace it. E.g. 4chan ramblings or general internet randomness. It's like, be super skeptical, fine, but you don't get to be selective. You can't say the BBC is shit but forum22334.hackerville.ru is credible and be taken seriously.

cannabis_sam 3y ago

>It does confirm that Ukraine is losing the war badly, I think it was like 7 Ukrainians dying for 1 Russian. Are you referring to the picture with 17k russians vs 71k ukrainians? I thought that was the one that had been edited/falsified…

ihatepython 3y ago
[flagged]
- cannabis_sam 3y ago
  No, I’ve seen two versions of that image. The one with 71/17 looked most obviously edited to me, but I was asking to get any more substantial confirmation either way.

polio 3y ago

I don't see how the ratio of dead Ukrainians to dead Russians is relevant to the utility of winning this war. It can also be construed as an argument for increased funding, because the Ukrainians are losing so badly. In my view, curtailing Russian expansion is the point of the war, and Ukrainian lives are unfortunately one cost of doing so. It's important that Ukrainians are participating in the war of their own volition; the US is not paying Ukrainians to join the battle, unlike the scenario with the ANA in Afghanistan. Even if the leak produces good outcomes, it should still be prosecuted as espionage, since there was no good faith motivation for the leak.

ihatepython 3y ago
The war itself is illegal. Congress never authorized the war. Exposing illegal activity of the US government should not be a crime.
- clouddrover 3y ago
  > The war itself is illegal Yes, Russia's invasion of Ukraine is illegal. It's a war of choice waged for reason no better than Putin's vanity. It hasn't helped Russia and it certainly hasn't helped Ukraine. Fortunately, it is within Russia's power to end the war tomorrow. All Russia needs to do is leave Ukrainian territory, return relocated Ukrainian citizens, start paying reparations, and begin the process of extraditing war criminals so they can be tried.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > Congress never authorized the war. The US aid to Ukraine that is the relation of the US government to the war is, in fact, authorized by Congress. See, e.g., the Ukraine Democracy Defense Lend-Lease Act of 2022 (PL 117-118).

clouddrover 3y ago

> It does confirm that Ukraine is losing the war badly, I think it was like 7 Ukrainians dying for 1 Russian. No: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/13/world/europe/ukraine-russia-prisoners.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/13/world/europe/ukraine-russ... https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/03/14/did-the-ukrainian-army-kill-1100-russians-in-a-single-day-its-certainly-possible/?sh=157af7757b5c https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/03/14/did-the-ukr... https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-war-already-with-up-354000-casualties-likely-drag-us-documents-2023-04-12/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-war-already-wit... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65260672 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65260672 https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/04/14/leaked-documents-russian-spetsnaz/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/04/14/... > With that knowledge What you call "knowledge" here is, in fact, just lies. It's interesting how susceptible people have become to falsehoods in the internet age. People get told what they want to hear and they believe it wholeheartedly, not matter how untrue it is.

ihatepython 3y ago
None of the sources you listed are credible.
- clouddrover 3y ago
  Sorry, but the factual world does not correspond to your fantasy world. You're going to have to grow up and learn to see the world beyond your computer screen. You've become internet siloed. It's rotting you.
- javajosh 3y ago
  Out of curiosity, what do you think credibility is? How do you think it is acquired? Do you think you have credibility? If so, why? Personally I don't find it odd that someone might reject "mainstream reality" as not credible. But what is odd are the things they often choose to replace it. E.g. 4chan ramblings or general internet randomness. It's like, be super skeptical, fine, but you don't get to be selective. You can't say the BBC is shit but forum22334.hackerville.ru is credible and be taken seriously.