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Cool. So what happened to Grozny? I mean, Jesus Christ, 150-300k people died and you’re telling me that people were pissed for being drafted.

orbital-decay 3y ago
I'm directly addressing the point that people were "silent". No they weren't silent, and framing it as being pissed for being drafted is bizarre to anyone who lived during that time. They were angry at Yeltsin for bringing the war in the first place, to use military force in both 1993 coup and Chechnya. Why the massively unpopular person (with 6%-something support before the campaign) remained in power instead of someone like Nemtsov (funny how you remember his murder but don't seem to remember what role he was in during 90s) is another question, the answer will be far too long.
- jevgeni 3y ago
  All irrelevant for the end-result: hundreds of thousands people dead, cities destroyed, warcrimes committed. 3 million "siloviki" in a country of 140 million - with these proportions, it's the 137 mil who are guilty.
  - orbital-decay 3y ago
    Honestly, what I hear is moving the goalposts until "it's irrelevant whether you did anything, if you lost it's your damn fault lmao". Same with Belarus 2020. Well, if I'm hearing it right, then good luck with that brush. It might be understandable, but that doesn't make it excusable.
    - jevgeni 3y ago
      Honestly, this playing the victim is at best getting tiring. You've ignored my comment to hear it as moving the goal posts. Again: only ca. 2% of the population are siloviki, who rely on the rest for support, for food, for logistics, for communication, IT support, etc., etc. If the protests fail, is because most of the 98% don't care, or snitch, or actively oppose the protest. That makes them culpable. A few complaining doesn't absolve the society.
      - orbital-decay 3y ago
        You, on the other hand, dismissed my comment on how it was, made another unrelated claim, and now hearing that I'm playing the victim. (how on Earth?..) We can run in circles this way if you desire, but I don't want to.
        jevgeni 3y ago
        It's only unlrelated if you don't care about the results. Which is the point I am making.
      - iavael 3y ago
        So you are fine with idea that if Ukraine loses war then it's okay to turn back no it at that very moment, call ukranians aggressors and punish them?
        jevgeni 3y ago
        I just read your comment and it makes no sense. EDIT: I think I understand now, but the amount of brainworms you have to have to equate a victim with someone silently supporting the aggressor is pretty big. russians are not the victims here.
        iavael 3y ago
        Are belorussians victims or silent aggressors? And what about chechns? They are good example of nation that had 2 long wars with russian government for independence, in the end they lost and now region is considered ultraloyal to Putin. Ofc this loyalty hold mostly on Kadyrov and federals' brutality, but I suspect that you anyway won't call them victims.

orbital-decay 3y ago

I'm directly addressing the point that people were "silent". No they weren't silent, and framing it as being pissed for being drafted is bizarre to anyone who lived during that time. They were angry at Yeltsin for bringing the war in the first place, to use military force in both 1993 coup and Chechnya. Why the massively unpopular person (with 6%-something support before the campaign) remained in power instead of someone like Nemtsov (funny how you remember his murder but don't seem to remember what role he was in during 90s) is another question, the answer will be far too long.

jevgeni 3y ago
All irrelevant for the end-result: hundreds of thousands people dead, cities destroyed, warcrimes committed. 3 million "siloviki" in a country of 140 million - with these proportions, it's the 137 mil who are guilty.
- orbital-decay 3y ago
  Honestly, what I hear is moving the goalposts until "it's irrelevant whether you did anything, if you lost it's your damn fault lmao". Same with Belarus 2020. Well, if I'm hearing it right, then good luck with that brush. It might be understandable, but that doesn't make it excusable.
  - jevgeni 3y ago
    Honestly, this playing the victim is at best getting tiring. You've ignored my comment to hear it as moving the goal posts. Again: only ca. 2% of the population are siloviki, who rely on the rest for support, for food, for logistics, for communication, IT support, etc., etc. If the protests fail, is because most of the 98% don't care, or snitch, or actively oppose the protest. That makes them culpable. A few complaining doesn't absolve the society.
    - orbital-decay 3y ago
      You, on the other hand, dismissed my comment on how it was, made another unrelated claim, and now hearing that I'm playing the victim. (how on Earth?..) We can run in circles this way if you desire, but I don't want to.
      - jevgeni 3y ago
        It's only unlrelated if you don't care about the results. Which is the point I am making.
    - iavael 3y ago
      So you are fine with idea that if Ukraine loses war then it's okay to turn back no it at that very moment, call ukranians aggressors and punish them?
      - jevgeni 3y ago
        I just read your comment and it makes no sense. EDIT: I think I understand now, but the amount of brainworms you have to have to equate a victim with someone silently supporting the aggressor is pretty big. russians are not the victims here.
        iavael 3y ago
        Are belorussians victims or silent aggressors? And what about chechns? They are good example of nation that had 2 long wars with russian government for independence, in the end they lost and now region is considered ultraloyal to Putin. Ofc this loyalty hold mostly on Kadyrov and federals' brutality, but I suspect that you anyway won't call them victims.