6 ms·

It's definitely not every city in Germany that has this problem. You're trying to live in one of the objectively best parts of Germany by a lot of stats and th

by erur 3y ago

It's definitely not every city in Germany that has this problem. You're trying to live in one of the objectively best parts of Germany by a lot of stats and thus you're competing with a lot of folks. I'm honestly sick of this whining about rent in top-tier areas. Living there is a luxury, given the major move to cities and scarcity, driven by insane regulations and basic logic. There are plenty of cities in Germany with very cheap rent, where apartment buildings get torn down because they're vacant. But of course the entitlement seems stronger than the willingness to compromise.

caconym_ 3y ago
Are the opportunities in those other cities comparable? I don't know Germany, but usually when I see people saying this about places I do know the answer is a resounding 'no'. So it would seem to be a little more complicated than entitled kids these days who simply will not compromise.
- LeanderK 3y ago
  somewhat. You still have Hamburg, Frankfurt, Berlin etc. Maybe Munich has slightly better opportunities, really depends on you specific niche, but then probably Zurich has even better opportunities but is even costlier. Or Copenhagen. I really somewhat agree. You really have to see that living in munich is a luxury that a lot of people can not enjoy because it's too expensive. Since you major in CS your social bubble is very well of (75k salary for the first job?) so you see it as somewhat given that you also belong there. And at the TUM they constantly tell you how much of an elite you are. It's a bit entitled I would say. Many Germans can't really live in munich and therefore have access to the opportunities there, it's just the most expensive place in germany you can rent in. You can always try to find a flat to share with roommates, this is still possible in munich.
froh 3y ago
this is glossing over corporate investment into rental housing past the 2008 crisis. there are drivers beyond "Munich is sexy + supply and demand"
whitemary 3y ago
People need jobs. Most people realize that. How old are you?
theshrike79 3y ago
> There are plenty of cities in Germany with very cheap rent, where apartment buildings get torn down because they're vacant. There are plenty of cities in Finland like this too. But the problem is that the jobs aren't there. I could buy a huge house with a big yard from one of those cities, but then my commute would be over 300km every day. Not really worth it. Or I would have to quit my job and start working in the local paper factory or sawmill.
- dgellow 3y ago
  Germany is not that centralized, you have way more options than just Munich if you’re willing to move, unless you’re specifically looking to work for Google. Köln, Düsseldorf, Berlin, Frankfurt, Hamburg, and more all have dynamic job markets if you’re into software. Even for English speakers.
- toyg 3y ago
  I'm not attacking your experience, but in 2023, with the explosion of remote jobs in software and generally post-covid, this sort of argument looks a bit weak on HN.
  - theshrike79 3y ago
    If it was only me and the SO, we'd be living in a huge house somewhere in the boondocks with a city-subsidised fiberoptic link. But... we have kids and the schools in the small towns aren't that good and most are constantly at risk of being shut down.
somedude895 3y ago
> I'm honestly sick of this whining about rent in top-tier areas. I don't know if this applies to GP, but we certainly get this in Zurich, Switzerland. We have a fantastic public transport system, and you can get fairly affordable apartments that are <30mins away from the city center of Zurich by train. But people somehow feel they have a right to live dead center in one of the most expensive cities in the world right after graduation.
- izacus 3y ago
  Calling anything within 30 (or even 45min) range from Zurich "affordable" is some heavy pile of BS. Anything commutable is massively out of the budget for most people.
  - midasuni 3y ago
    That might be for Zurich. 30 minutes out of london you can get 1 or even 2 bed flats for under 160k
- sys42590 3y ago
  If you look at Zürich, one thing that stands out is that everything related to school and daycare / day school works a LOT better in Zürich than in surrounding nearby cities and villages, which is probably a boon of having a socialist city government. So for parents it IS attractive to stay in Zürich instead of moving 30 train minutes outside. Of course not everything is greener in Zürich, but if you need some public services like well organized schools or services for the elderly, Zürich city is really a bit nicer.
hutzlibu 3y ago
"I'm honestly sick of this whining about rent in top-tier areas. Living there is a luxury" Hm, I am quite sure, that even luxury areas need garbage people. If the top income people are having problems living there, how is that socially sustainable at all? Or is the solution, that the peasants all have to commute 2h plus every day?
- badpun 3y ago
  The solution is to pay garbage people much more than in cheaper areas.
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    More than university graduates like OP?
    - Broken_Hippo 3y ago
      You should pay enough to live in the area you work in. If that means that the jobs pay more than someone that needs the degree to work in their field, the person with the degree is being underpaid as well. FWIW: Some of the garbage men, janitors, retail employees, and others working in "unskilled" jobs likely have degrees too. This is even more likely if they are immigrants.
    - beebeepka 3y ago
      Sure, why not. It's a hard, unpleasant work that is absolutely vital. It's a travesty how underpaid and underappreciated these people are
      - hutzlibu 3y ago
        Because of demand and supply. But there are many more "shitty" sectors, that are absolutely vital and underpaid. That showed quite nice at the pandemic, where vital workers got excemptions from the lockdown. Those vital workers were mostly all the low paying jobs. I think that got some people thinking, at least for some minutes about the absurdity of the status quo. So I am all for paying them all more and for example the executive of the german train (who had his company have a shitty year in the reds, but still effectivly doubling his salary) less. Suggestions on how to actually change it? Most approaches I know where people go to the top to change things kind of fail, - once they are at the top, they rather enjoy the benefits there. Whether they are socialists or free market radicals.
izacus 3y ago
You are sick of people wanting to live in good places? Are you really sure "dem poors should just stay in crappy places" is the point you wanted to make?

by erur 3y ago

caconym_ 3y ago

Are the opportunities in those other cities comparable? I don't know Germany, but usually when I see people saying this about places I do know the answer is a resounding 'no'. So it would seem to be a little more complicated than entitled kids these days who simply will not compromise.

LeanderK 3y ago
somewhat. You still have Hamburg, Frankfurt, Berlin etc. Maybe Munich has slightly better opportunities, really depends on you specific niche, but then probably Zurich has even better opportunities but is even costlier. Or Copenhagen. I really somewhat agree. You really have to see that living in munich is a luxury that a lot of people can not enjoy because it's too expensive. Since you major in CS your social bubble is very well of (75k salary for the first job?) so you see it as somewhat given that you also belong there. And at the TUM they constantly tell you how much of an elite you are. It's a bit entitled I would say. Many Germans can't really live in munich and therefore have access to the opportunities there, it's just the most expensive place in germany you can rent in. You can always try to find a flat to share with roommates, this is still possible in munich.

froh 3y ago

this is glossing over corporate investment into rental housing past the 2008 crisis. there are drivers beyond "Munich is sexy + supply and demand"

whitemary 3y ago

People need jobs. Most people realize that. How old are you?

theshrike79 3y ago

> There are plenty of cities in Germany with very cheap rent, where apartment buildings get torn down because they're vacant. There are plenty of cities in Finland like this too. But the problem is that the jobs aren't there. I could buy a huge house with a big yard from one of those cities, but then my commute would be over 300km every day. Not really worth it. Or I would have to quit my job and start working in the local paper factory or sawmill.

dgellow 3y ago
Germany is not that centralized, you have way more options than just Munich if you’re willing to move, unless you’re specifically looking to work for Google. Köln, Düsseldorf, Berlin, Frankfurt, Hamburg, and more all have dynamic job markets if you’re into software. Even for English speakers.
toyg 3y ago
I'm not attacking your experience, but in 2023, with the explosion of remote jobs in software and generally post-covid, this sort of argument looks a bit weak on HN.
- theshrike79 3y ago
  If it was only me and the SO, we'd be living in a huge house somewhere in the boondocks with a city-subsidised fiberoptic link. But... we have kids and the schools in the small towns aren't that good and most are constantly at risk of being shut down.

somedude895 3y ago

> I'm honestly sick of this whining about rent in top-tier areas. I don't know if this applies to GP, but we certainly get this in Zurich, Switzerland. We have a fantastic public transport system, and you can get fairly affordable apartments that are <30mins away from the city center of Zurich by train. But people somehow feel they have a right to live dead center in one of the most expensive cities in the world right after graduation.

izacus 3y ago
Calling anything within 30 (or even 45min) range from Zurich "affordable" is some heavy pile of BS. Anything commutable is massively out of the budget for most people.
- midasuni 3y ago
  That might be for Zurich. 30 minutes out of london you can get 1 or even 2 bed flats for under 160k
sys42590 3y ago
If you look at Zürich, one thing that stands out is that everything related to school and daycare / day school works a LOT better in Zürich than in surrounding nearby cities and villages, which is probably a boon of having a socialist city government. So for parents it IS attractive to stay in Zürich instead of moving 30 train minutes outside. Of course not everything is greener in Zürich, but if you need some public services like well organized schools or services for the elderly, Zürich city is really a bit nicer.

hutzlibu 3y ago

"I'm honestly sick of this whining about rent in top-tier areas. Living there is a luxury" Hm, I am quite sure, that even luxury areas need garbage people. If the top income people are having problems living there, how is that socially sustainable at all? Or is the solution, that the peasants all have to commute 2h plus every day?

badpun 3y ago
The solution is to pay garbage people much more than in cheaper areas.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  More than university graduates like OP?
  - Broken_Hippo 3y ago
    You should pay enough to live in the area you work in. If that means that the jobs pay more than someone that needs the degree to work in their field, the person with the degree is being underpaid as well. FWIW: Some of the garbage men, janitors, retail employees, and others working in "unskilled" jobs likely have degrees too. This is even more likely if they are immigrants.
  - beebeepka 3y ago
    Sure, why not. It's a hard, unpleasant work that is absolutely vital. It's a travesty how underpaid and underappreciated these people are
    - hutzlibu 3y ago
      Because of demand and supply. But there are many more "shitty" sectors, that are absolutely vital and underpaid. That showed quite nice at the pandemic, where vital workers got excemptions from the lockdown. Those vital workers were mostly all the low paying jobs. I think that got some people thinking, at least for some minutes about the absurdity of the status quo. So I am all for paying them all more and for example the executive of the german train (who had his company have a shitty year in the reds, but still effectivly doubling his salary) less. Suggestions on how to actually change it? Most approaches I know where people go to the top to change things kind of fail, - once they are at the top, they rather enjoy the benefits there. Whether they are socialists or free market radicals.

izacus 3y ago

You are sick of people wanting to live in good places? Are you really sure "dem poors should just stay in crappy places" is the point you wanted to make?