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I read an article somewhere that discusses how Toyota has the most battery patents out of any company and also owns most of the solid state patents and are actu

by gt565k 3y ago

I read an article somewhere that discusses how Toyota has the most battery patents out of any company and also owns most of the solid state patents and are actually working on commercializing solid state batteries for vehicles. The point I think the article was trying to make is that while everyone is focused on lithium ion, Toyota was biding it’s time and getting ready to one-up everyone with solid state batteries and vehicles with double the range.

_trackno5 3y ago
Please share that article if you can find it. Sounds like an interesting take! I honestly don't get the criticism Toyota has been getting recently. I think their decision to not go all in on just electric vehicles makes sense, especially for countries where it is highly unlikely that full EV will be a reality in the next decade.
- MontyCarloHall 3y ago
  >I honestly don't get the criticism [Toyota] has been getting recently. I think their decision to not go all in on just electric vehicles makes sense Because for a while it seemed they were going all-in on hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, a technology that makes little technological (and even less practical) sense.
  - _trackno5 3y ago
    For a while, but not the case anymore. They seem keen on having a diverse set of offerings, with some EV and hybrid cars. Yet the criticism continues
- thatwasunusual 3y ago
  > Please share that article if you can find it. Sounds like an interesting take! I assume it's this one: https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/Toyota-secures-huge-lead-in-solid-state-battery-patents https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/Toyota-secures-h... It seems to behind a soft paywall, so here's the archive.ph edition: https://archive.ph/UWFCH https://archive.ph/UWFCH
pjc50 3y ago
I'm not sure about Toyota, because up till now they've been hydrogen evangelists and they don't have a great record on pure battery EVs.
- rowanG077 3y ago
  Isn't that a given since the invest in solid-state?
  - speedgoose 3y ago
    Solid-state isn't going to fix the crazy high consumption of their EVs.
- gonzo41 3y ago
  Well H2 is a hedge. It's a green-ish fuel and has potential as a replacement to lng for japan. but more power to toyota. can't wait to get an electric hilux. hopefully it's cheap.
  - nordsieck 3y ago
    > Well H2 is a hedge. It's a green-ish fuel and has potential as a replacement to lng for japan. Is it though? Can't be a hedge if it doesn't really work well fundamentally. Although I'll admit to being largely ignorant of the Japanese car market. IMO, it'd be much more practical to invest in automotive LNG tech and combine that with synthesizing LNG from the atmosphere (or at least developing the tech to do so). Practically, both H2 and LNG are both "dirty", since H2 is made though natural gas reforming these days.
    - greggsy 3y ago
      H2 has the benefit of being much easier to store, transport and transfer than batteries. It’s able to be stored in small containers and large vessels of any shape. Batteries manufacturing is much more complex. Electricity needs to be transferred from a power station over wires, while hydrogen can be pumped into a vehicle from a bulk source. Sure H2 is dangerous, but so is LNG, and petrol for that matter. 100+ years of accidents and safety controls means that even a drunk person smoking at the pump can (probably) fill their car up safely. Japan has very poor carbon security, so LNG reforming might come with its own challenges, but they could generate it via electrolysis using nuclear or wind power, or import ammonia from future mega producers like Australia. It’s very likely that global demand in the transport sector will tend towards H2, so they need to gear their industry towards that market.
ezconnect 3y ago
They have always been conservative. They have the most reliable hybrid in the market.
horseRad 3y ago
I remember when people said Toyota would sweep in and crush EV:s with solid state batteries in 2020 (Even when they despised EV:s). https://techcrunch.com/2017/07/25/toyotas-new-solid-state-battery-could-make-its-way-to-cars-by-2020/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIz5IpWe9t5GRcp92xUe40PoW8bUnnCY5XUuvuRY96DReoF6fu1N9xPUiqylGaJv0wBnlFVRbtJKDMv6nuoCh7QE9eiuli_RwJFMWuzdwUbJREUQMA3UQYdttWO_kQWmlkpWV5FYIJtir7SDjelSUte1ClgIsQASzYP2exY_Cotm https://techcrunch.com/2017/07/25/toyotas-new-solid-state-ba...
moogly 3y ago
So are you saying this long game is why the anti-EV CEO Toyoda Akio is stepping down tomorrow? (Read between the lines: being ousted by the board).
- panick21_ 3y ago
  In realty his successor is just as anti-EV.
datacruncher01 3y ago
I think that Toyota won't really go heavy into EVs until batteries are more available. EV batteries are heavily dependent on lithium availability which is limited by world wide exploration limits. We are only able to mine enough to make about 2 million Tesla equivalent cars per year, and that's if none of it goes to phones other electronic devices. Toyota sells that many vehicles alone each year. Until there is something that can scale and still allow them to sell an economical model, they won't go heavy into EVs.
- dev_daftly 3y ago
  I mean, Toyota has said this themselves. Their view is that making 1,000,000 hybrids is better than 1,000 evs because most of an evs battery capacity is wasted on a daily basis.
panick21_ 3y ago
Yeah so this is basically just repeating Toyota marketing. Yes they have lots of patents, because they studied lots of stuff, it does not mean they are in the lead of anything. > while everyone is focused on lithium ion Please remember that 'solid state' is just a marketing term. The actual meaning when talking in terms of automotive battery is 'lithium metal anodes'. So these are still lithium ion batteries. And lots of people are working on lithium metal anodes, and have been for 50 years. > Toyota was biding it’s time and getting ready to one-up everyone with solid state batteries and vehicles with double the range. That is certainty what Toyota marketing has been telling people. But in reality scaling a new battery technology is incredibly difficult and if these claims were actually true we would see massive Toyota battery factory being build. When in reality its incredibly low volume production stuff that might show up in a few hybrids. Also, 'solid state' isn't magically better then everything else. You can hit the same density with silicon. There are 100s of companies working on silicon and lithium metal anodes. Toyota has announced some EVs but no actual product with these magical batteries that they have. The reality is, nobody, not Toyota best battery engineers know how difficult it will be to scale production of these things to a massive gigafactory. And if its not a massive gigafactory then its practically irrelevant in the EV market. So unless we actually see a massive gigafactory somewhere that is dedicated to this type of battery, this is just marketing.

by gt565k 3y ago

_trackno5 3y ago

Please share that article if you can find it. Sounds like an interesting take! I honestly don't get the criticism Toyota has been getting recently. I think their decision to not go all in on just electric vehicles makes sense, especially for countries where it is highly unlikely that full EV will be a reality in the next decade.

MontyCarloHall 3y ago
>I honestly don't get the criticism [Toyota] has been getting recently. I think their decision to not go all in on just electric vehicles makes sense Because for a while it seemed they were going all-in on hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, a technology that makes little technological (and even less practical) sense.
- _trackno5 3y ago
  For a while, but not the case anymore. They seem keen on having a diverse set of offerings, with some EV and hybrid cars. Yet the criticism continues
thatwasunusual 3y ago
> Please share that article if you can find it. Sounds like an interesting take! I assume it's this one: https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/Toyota-secures-huge-lead-in-solid-state-battery-patents https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/Toyota-secures-h... It seems to behind a soft paywall, so here's the archive.ph edition: https://archive.ph/UWFCH https://archive.ph/UWFCH

pjc50 3y ago

I'm not sure about Toyota, because up till now they've been hydrogen evangelists and they don't have a great record on pure battery EVs.

rowanG077 3y ago
Isn't that a given since the invest in solid-state?
- speedgoose 3y ago
  Solid-state isn't going to fix the crazy high consumption of their EVs.
gonzo41 3y ago
Well H2 is a hedge. It's a green-ish fuel and has potential as a replacement to lng for japan. but more power to toyota. can't wait to get an electric hilux. hopefully it's cheap.
- nordsieck 3y ago
  > Well H2 is a hedge. It's a green-ish fuel and has potential as a replacement to lng for japan. Is it though? Can't be a hedge if it doesn't really work well fundamentally. Although I'll admit to being largely ignorant of the Japanese car market. IMO, it'd be much more practical to invest in automotive LNG tech and combine that with synthesizing LNG from the atmosphere (or at least developing the tech to do so). Practically, both H2 and LNG are both "dirty", since H2 is made though natural gas reforming these days.
  - greggsy 3y ago
    H2 has the benefit of being much easier to store, transport and transfer than batteries. It’s able to be stored in small containers and large vessels of any shape. Batteries manufacturing is much more complex. Electricity needs to be transferred from a power station over wires, while hydrogen can be pumped into a vehicle from a bulk source. Sure H2 is dangerous, but so is LNG, and petrol for that matter. 100+ years of accidents and safety controls means that even a drunk person smoking at the pump can (probably) fill their car up safely. Japan has very poor carbon security, so LNG reforming might come with its own challenges, but they could generate it via electrolysis using nuclear or wind power, or import ammonia from future mega producers like Australia. It’s very likely that global demand in the transport sector will tend towards H2, so they need to gear their industry towards that market.

ezconnect 3y ago

They have always been conservative. They have the most reliable hybrid in the market.

horseRad 3y ago

I remember when people said Toyota would sweep in and crush EV:s with solid state batteries in 2020 (Even when they despised EV:s). https://techcrunch.com/2017/07/25/toyotas-new-solid-state-battery-could-make-its-way-to-cars-by-2020/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIz5IpWe9t5GRcp92xUe40PoW8bUnnCY5XUuvuRY96DReoF6fu1N9xPUiqylGaJv0wBnlFVRbtJKDMv6nuoCh7QE9eiuli_RwJFMWuzdwUbJREUQMA3UQYdttWO_kQWmlkpWV5FYIJtir7SDjelSUte1ClgIsQASzYP2exY_Cotm https://techcrunch.com/2017/07/25/toyotas-new-solid-state-ba...

moogly 3y ago

So are you saying this long game is why the anti-EV CEO Toyoda Akio is stepping down tomorrow? (Read between the lines: being ousted by the board).

panick21_ 3y ago
In realty his successor is just as anti-EV.

datacruncher01 3y ago

I think that Toyota won't really go heavy into EVs until batteries are more available. EV batteries are heavily dependent on lithium availability which is limited by world wide exploration limits. We are only able to mine enough to make about 2 million Tesla equivalent cars per year, and that's if none of it goes to phones other electronic devices. Toyota sells that many vehicles alone each year. Until there is something that can scale and still allow them to sell an economical model, they won't go heavy into EVs.

dev_daftly 3y ago
I mean, Toyota has said this themselves. Their view is that making 1,000,000 hybrids is better than 1,000 evs because most of an evs battery capacity is wasted on a daily basis.

panick21_ 3y ago

Yeah so this is basically just repeating Toyota marketing. Yes they have lots of patents, because they studied lots of stuff, it does not mean they are in the lead of anything. > while everyone is focused on lithium ion Please remember that 'solid state' is just a marketing term. The actual meaning when talking in terms of automotive battery is 'lithium metal anodes'. So these are still lithium ion batteries. And lots of people are working on lithium metal anodes, and have been for 50 years. > Toyota was biding it’s time and getting ready to one-up everyone with solid state batteries and vehicles with double the range. That is certainty what Toyota marketing has been telling people. But in reality scaling a new battery technology is incredibly difficult and if these claims were actually true we would see massive Toyota battery factory being build. When in reality its incredibly low volume production stuff that might show up in a few hybrids. Also, 'solid state' isn't magically better then everything else. You can hit the same density with silicon. There are 100s of companies working on silicon and lithium metal anodes. Toyota has announced some EVs but no actual product with these magical batteries that they have. The reality is, nobody, not Toyota best battery engineers know how difficult it will be to scale production of these things to a massive gigafactory. And if its not a massive gigafactory then its practically irrelevant in the EV market. So unless we actually see a massive gigafactory somewhere that is dedicated to this type of battery, this is just marketing.