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I am going to chime in being negative against the wave of positive feedback here. Twitter has done well releasing this and when I first saw it ages ago it look

I am going to chime in being negative against the wave of positive feedback here. Twitter has done well releasing this and when I first saw it ages ago it looked neat and fairly professional. However, like a pop song which has been completely overplayed on the radio it has become tired and frankly a bit annoying. It has its uses offline to quickly get a demo up and running but it shouldn't be used on a live site. At least not in its entirety. If you have to use this for your project due to convenience or lack of design skills then do everyone a favor and mix it up a little bit. Change the colors on the buttons. Avoid the black bar running along the top of your website. Just don't look 100% like a vanilla bootstrap site.

scorpion032 15y ago
Bootstrap is not overused; just under customized. In all fairness, what this proves is that there is a fairly large market for such packaged customization themes which are built thoughtfully and work on all resolutions.
- dglassan 15y ago
  This has already been proved by themeforest.net years ago with their admin templates
  - scorpion032 15y ago
    True. Clearly their time is divided into doing so many of those themes. Instead, if they did a (or a few) authoritative themes with compass css with such good documentation as bootstrap and their theme works at all resolutions, I'm sure people will use that one too.
    - whatusername 15y ago
      Themeforest is a marketplace. They make money no matter which one you buy.
- StavrosK 15y ago
  I have filed a bug that was closed about this very thing. Bootstrap is very hard to customize because the variable color names are inane. Rather than define a palette of X many colors and then use that everywhere, bootstrap defines variables as @gray, @pink, @white, etc. If you want a light-on-dark layout, you need to redefine @gray as white, which makes no sense. I proposed names like @primaryColor, @primaryColorLight, @secondaryColor, etc, but the tickets were closed. Yes, it's a lot of work, but it must be done. If you can define your four colors and have Bootstrap look entirely different, it goes a long way to instant customization.
  - dminor 15y ago
    That's a shame - this is my main complaint about bootstrap. If you do plunge ahead and do a bunch of color customization, it also makes upgrading to new versions a pain.
    - StavrosK 15y ago
      Actually, to give credit where it's due, I just downloaded the 2.0 release and it seems like things are much better. Still not at the point I'm describing, but at least the end classes aren't littered with @gray declarations.
    - danneu 15y ago
      I didn't even notice the LESS variables and built a dark theme in about 20 minutes by cascading over Bootstrap vanilla. Upgrading isn't an issue as long as you make customizations in a separate file that you simply include after bootstrap.css. http://danneu.com/darkstrap/darkstrap.html http://danneu.com/darkstrap/darkstrap.html
- charliepark 15y ago
  Speaking of this, I built a tool using jQuery and Twitter Bootstrap itself that lets you customize the button's hue, saturation, lightness, and "puffiness". You can see it here: http://charliepark.org/bootstrap_buttons/ http://charliepark.org/bootstrap_buttons/. Any discussion on it will hopefully be at the HN thread I just submitted (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3538053 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3538053).
joelhaasnoot 15y ago
It's a framework - use it as such
conroy 15y ago
I've found the best use for Bootstrap is internal sites and tools. The public never sees these tools so they are usually stuck with terrible UI and UX. Bootstrap makes these tools so much easier to write.
- jsavimbi 15y ago
  Same here.
jamiequint 15y ago
"Just don't look 100% like a vanilla bootstrap site." Unless you're targeting developers or Silicon Valley who cares? Most people couldn't tell you the difference between a Bootstrap site or a non-bootstrap site, even if they could its unlikely they would actually care. As a dev who admittedly sucks at CSS I'll take better looking and clone-like (and cross-browser) over ugly and unique any day.
- loucal 15y ago
  I agree with you 100% here Jamie. Any non-developer I have shown the bootstap styling to just says it looks very professional, even if it is the 'vanilla bootstrap site'. Admittedly, I do agree that it some customizing should be done since it is very simple, but I wouldn't say changing the button colors is world-changing. Also, check out oss/bootstrap/docs/download.html#variables a new feature in the docs that makes customizing really easy even for someone who doesn't know CSS! It just looks like you chimed in to show the negative side, but didn't even check out the new code. Thank you to anyone who worked on the project, 2.0 is awesome. Responsive design is nailed down, adding and removing components is even easier than before and the docs are awesome. Good stuff here.
- mrvir 15y ago
  I'm trying bootstrap in my latest project, but have to say was surprised the first time I viewed it with IE. Even with IE9 the navbar and buttons look poor. Any advise?
davidw 15y ago
Lazy question: is it easy to remove that black bar? I think it's a terrible bit of navigation for "average user" kinds of people, who will easily miss it.
- vidarh 15y ago
  Just don't add it in the first place.
  - davidw 15y ago
    Ah, cool, I thought it was some kind of default they gave you.
- chaz 15y ago
  This would be an easy A/B test. If you do it, I'd love to hear what you found.
- jonknee 15y ago
  It's used on Twitter, Google and Facebook (er, Blue Bar). I think the "average user" can get it.
  - davidw 15y ago
    There are plenty of 'average Joe' kind of people who don't use stuff like Twitter or Facebook much. Some of our customers seem to have some difficulties finding information on pricing here, for instance: http://www.liberwriter.com/ http://www.liberwriter.com/ If that navigation link were at the top in a small black band, it might as well be on Mars.
    - eurleif 15y ago
      Are you sure people wouldn't have an easier time finding the nav links on your site if they were in a bar? They look a lot like body text to me now, which might be the issue. Have you done any testing?
wavephorm 15y ago
You should A/B whether users give a damn.
yatsyk 15y ago
Bootstrap looks better then 95% of sites in internets. Actually I hope that more and more sites will use bootstrap. I've tired of different look and feel. There are zillions of autocompletes and everyone behaves differently (different animations, keyboard shortcuts and so on). Even buttons works differently on different sites. If you look at iPhone or Mac or Windows application they looks the same as other application on particular platform and no one annoyed. Each application use same keyboard shortcuts and controls and frequently share same colors. There is even UI recommendations for most of the platforms. You could use owner-drawn controls for sure but it usually they are used only if default controls are unsuitable for some task or in games.
brlewis 15y ago
You're advising people who lack design skills to change the colors? How about just advising them to focus on the content and functionality of the site they're building. If they do that, you won't have to tell them to remove the black bar. They'll remove it if it doesn't help the site.
jenius 15y ago
I agree with this completely - it's too branded and shackles you in development. I am working right now on a solution that gives you the ability to quickly prototype with nice looking styles, but is much more flexible and modular and gets out of your way when you need it. It's going to be a pretty huge project (and will borrow some pieces from bootstrap), but will post when it's done
- tbatterii 15y ago
  I need this by the end of the week. :)
stephenhuey 15y ago
Everyone survived eons of staring at old Windows application UIs, and this is prettier to look at! Believe it or not, a lot of business users expected their apps to have that boring look or else they might not consider it a full-fledged Windows program. The old Winamp design around the turn of the millenium looked alien in Windows--it looked awesome, but no business users would've considered it to be professional. When you go into a company to knock out some internal apps for them, creating something that gets work done is going to come first, and Bootstrap makes it possible for your app to look decent even when you don't have a designer around.
easp 15y ago
Once upon a time, smart, thoughtful people thought it was a good thing for different applications to make use of a common set of well thought out UI elements because it allowed users to leverage knowledge across many applications. Some would say that it isn't a bad thing to have more of that on the web.

scorpion032 15y ago

Bootstrap is not overused; just under customized. In all fairness, what this proves is that there is a fairly large market for such packaged customization themes which are built thoughtfully and work on all resolutions.

dglassan 15y ago
This has already been proved by themeforest.net years ago with their admin templates
- scorpion032 15y ago
  True. Clearly their time is divided into doing so many of those themes. Instead, if they did a (or a few) authoritative themes with compass css with such good documentation as bootstrap and their theme works at all resolutions, I'm sure people will use that one too.
  - whatusername 15y ago
    Themeforest is a marketplace. They make money no matter which one you buy.
StavrosK 15y ago
I have filed a bug that was closed about this very thing. Bootstrap is very hard to customize because the variable color names are inane. Rather than define a palette of X many colors and then use that everywhere, bootstrap defines variables as @gray, @pink, @white, etc. If you want a light-on-dark layout, you need to redefine @gray as white, which makes no sense. I proposed names like @primaryColor, @primaryColorLight, @secondaryColor, etc, but the tickets were closed. Yes, it's a lot of work, but it must be done. If you can define your four colors and have Bootstrap look entirely different, it goes a long way to instant customization.
- dminor 15y ago
  That's a shame - this is my main complaint about bootstrap. If you do plunge ahead and do a bunch of color customization, it also makes upgrading to new versions a pain.
  - StavrosK 15y ago
    Actually, to give credit where it's due, I just downloaded the 2.0 release and it seems like things are much better. Still not at the point I'm describing, but at least the end classes aren't littered with @gray declarations.
  - danneu 15y ago
    I didn't even notice the LESS variables and built a dark theme in about 20 minutes by cascading over Bootstrap vanilla. Upgrading isn't an issue as long as you make customizations in a separate file that you simply include after bootstrap.css. http://danneu.com/darkstrap/darkstrap.html http://danneu.com/darkstrap/darkstrap.html
charliepark 15y ago
Speaking of this, I built a tool using jQuery and Twitter Bootstrap itself that lets you customize the button's hue, saturation, lightness, and "puffiness". You can see it here: http://charliepark.org/bootstrap_buttons/ http://charliepark.org/bootstrap_buttons/. Any discussion on it will hopefully be at the HN thread I just submitted (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3538053 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3538053).

joelhaasnoot 15y ago

It's a framework - use it as such

conroy 15y ago

I've found the best use for Bootstrap is internal sites and tools. The public never sees these tools so they are usually stuck with terrible UI and UX. Bootstrap makes these tools so much easier to write.

jsavimbi 15y ago
Same here.

jamiequint 15y ago

"Just don't look 100% like a vanilla bootstrap site." Unless you're targeting developers or Silicon Valley who cares? Most people couldn't tell you the difference between a Bootstrap site or a non-bootstrap site, even if they could its unlikely they would actually care. As a dev who admittedly sucks at CSS I'll take better looking and clone-like (and cross-browser) over ugly and unique any day.

loucal 15y ago
I agree with you 100% here Jamie. Any non-developer I have shown the bootstap styling to just says it looks very professional, even if it is the 'vanilla bootstrap site'. Admittedly, I do agree that it some customizing should be done since it is very simple, but I wouldn't say changing the button colors is world-changing. Also, check out oss/bootstrap/docs/download.html#variables a new feature in the docs that makes customizing really easy even for someone who doesn't know CSS! It just looks like you chimed in to show the negative side, but didn't even check out the new code. Thank you to anyone who worked on the project, 2.0 is awesome. Responsive design is nailed down, adding and removing components is even easier than before and the docs are awesome. Good stuff here.
mrvir 15y ago
I'm trying bootstrap in my latest project, but have to say was surprised the first time I viewed it with IE. Even with IE9 the navbar and buttons look poor. Any advise?

davidw 15y ago

Lazy question: is it easy to remove that black bar? I think it's a terrible bit of navigation for "average user" kinds of people, who will easily miss it.

vidarh 15y ago
Just don't add it in the first place.
- davidw 15y ago
  Ah, cool, I thought it was some kind of default they gave you.
chaz 15y ago
This would be an easy A/B test. If you do it, I'd love to hear what you found.
jonknee 15y ago
It's used on Twitter, Google and Facebook (er, Blue Bar). I think the "average user" can get it.
- davidw 15y ago
  There are plenty of 'average Joe' kind of people who don't use stuff like Twitter or Facebook much. Some of our customers seem to have some difficulties finding information on pricing here, for instance: http://www.liberwriter.com/ http://www.liberwriter.com/ If that navigation link were at the top in a small black band, it might as well be on Mars.
  - eurleif 15y ago
    Are you sure people wouldn't have an easier time finding the nav links on your site if they were in a bar? They look a lot like body text to me now, which might be the issue. Have you done any testing?

wavephorm 15y ago

You should A/B whether users give a damn.

yatsyk 15y ago

Bootstrap looks better then 95% of sites in internets. Actually I hope that more and more sites will use bootstrap. I've tired of different look and feel. There are zillions of autocompletes and everyone behaves differently (different animations, keyboard shortcuts and so on). Even buttons works differently on different sites. If you look at iPhone or Mac or Windows application they looks the same as other application on particular platform and no one annoyed. Each application use same keyboard shortcuts and controls and frequently share same colors. There is even UI recommendations for most of the platforms. You could use owner-drawn controls for sure but it usually they are used only if default controls are unsuitable for some task or in games.

brlewis 15y ago

You're advising people who lack design skills to change the colors? How about just advising them to focus on the content and functionality of the site they're building. If they do that, you won't have to tell them to remove the black bar. They'll remove it if it doesn't help the site.

jenius 15y ago

I agree with this completely - it's too branded and shackles you in development. I am working right now on a solution that gives you the ability to quickly prototype with nice looking styles, but is much more flexible and modular and gets out of your way when you need it. It's going to be a pretty huge project (and will borrow some pieces from bootstrap), but will post when it's done

tbatterii 15y ago
I need this by the end of the week. :)

stephenhuey 15y ago

Everyone survived eons of staring at old Windows application UIs, and this is prettier to look at! Believe it or not, a lot of business users expected their apps to have that boring look or else they might not consider it a full-fledged Windows program. The old Winamp design around the turn of the millenium looked alien in Windows--it looked awesome, but no business users would've considered it to be professional. When you go into a company to knock out some internal apps for them, creating something that gets work done is going to come first, and Bootstrap makes it possible for your app to look decent even when you don't have a designer around.

easp 15y ago

Once upon a time, smart, thoughtful people thought it was a good thing for different applications to make use of a common set of well thought out UI elements because it allowed users to leverage knowledge across many applications. Some would say that it isn't a bad thing to have more of that on the web.