6 ms·

Precisely. Especially in India - which is almost as large a time zone offset as you can have. Furthermore, India pays competitively enough that you’re not savin

Precisely. Especially in India - which is almost as large a time zone offset as you can have. Furthermore, India pays competitively enough that you’re not saving that much money for top talent as compared to e.g Eastern Europe. When I ran engineering teams, the language/dialect barrier between our US mothership and India was much much wider than South American and European devs, even though India is technically the largest English-speaking country in the world.

prottog 3y ago
> India - which is almost as large a time zone offset as you can have Not just that, it's a half-hour offset from pretty much the rest of the world! I wonder which genius thought of that one.
- kylehotchkiss 3y ago
  Kathmandu wanted to be even more odd and created a +5:45 offset
- not2b 3y ago
  It makes perfect sense: the "natural" lines would give India two time zones; combining them into one half-hour time zone gives the whole country the same time. It did cause problems with the early Bell Labs Unix releases, which didn't contemplate that a time zone might not be a whole number of hours away from Greenwich.
  - prottog 3y ago
    Surely India as a large federal nation would be OK with two time zones! It makes about as much sense as China having one time zone for its sixty degrees of longitude.
    - Xixi 3y ago
      You don't have to adjust the clocks though, you can adjust business hours instead. Just look at Spain, which shares the same timezone as Poland: they simply wake up/go to bed later on the clock, but not with regard to the sun.
      - prottog 3y ago
        Spain is a good example of a politically-motivated time zone. Prior to Franco putting the country in CET to be in line with Axis powers, it was in GMT, which makes a lot more natural sense. > they simply wake up/go to bed later on the clock, but not with regard to the sun. This defeats the purpose of having time zones at all. People generally prefer the sun near overhead at noon; otherwise we would all just set our clocks to UTC no matter where we are. It would certainly make programmers' lives easier ;-)
    - not2b 3y ago
      The offset between local noon and time-zone noon is never that large, nowhere near what it's like in China, and it actually puts the center of the country closer to solar time. So it seems a reasonable thing to do, better than having the TZ line right in the middle where the railroads will keep crossing it.
    - rk06 3y ago
      Nope, we simply adjust business hours according to daylight. just like we update school hours timing in summer and winter without DST. The main advantage of having single timezone is that we can coordinate time related info(eg: train timings) unambiguously throughout the country.
throwayyy479087 3y ago
The hardest time I’ve had communicating at work has been with native English speakers from India. They have such a strong accent and such different idioms. Same to some extent with Singlish. The problem is they really are speaking perfectly legal English, with grammar better than mine, but it’s a different dialect. Not true of ESL Indians.
- ebiester 3y ago
  I’ve spent long enough in the industry that I am relatively comfortable with many of the accents, I would love a class to exist that teaches non-Indians the dialect.
  - operatingthetan 3y ago
    I think after about a year in tech consulting I developed a pretty robust ability to understand accents that most Americans have trouble with. Chinese, Russian, Indian, Nigerian, you name it. I guess if someone wants to practice they could listen to Kitboga or something.
  - jojobas 3y ago
    Right, everyone else needs to adjust to the Indian dialect of English.
    - ebiester 3y ago
      Need or else, your career may improve if you can work with a wider group of talented people.
  - xeromal 3y ago
    Welcome to my ted talk: Prepone Do the needful Kindly You are now well-versed. I'm joking though. That would be a fun class to take!
- beezlebroxxxxxx 3y ago
  Honestly, they only issue I run into is that they tend to speak English extremely fast.
moneywoes 3y ago
Is eastern Europe the real outsourcing threat?
- fwungy 3y ago
  There aren't as many East Europeans.
  - sacnoradhq 3y ago
    Unimportant. Educated tech workers are in much higher densities in many Eastern European countries than elsewhere. Of all European countries, these are good bets for recruiting: Austria, Belgium, Croatia, Cyprus, Czechia, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Hungary, Latvia, Poland, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Ukraine https://www.coursera.org/skills-reports/global https://www.coursera.org/skills-reports/global
- sacnoradhq 3y ago
  Until ~2010, Belarus was until someone went all-in with Moscow. Ukraine is (and still will be) an excellent outsourcing opportunity. Personally, I find it very easy to understand Slavic-speaking English as a secondary language speakers. In general, there can be word use, humor, and cultural media reference difficulties, so it's important to always use very plain and direct language to avoid misunderstandings. To further comprehension and understanding, it's beneficial to say the same thing again in different words and ask for their understanding of details in yet other words. PS: Early/mid 2022, I bought items on Etsy postmarked from Kyiv. Somehow, sellers forwarded parcels to Germany and Turkey and then to the US between shellings, missile attacks, and columns of Russian armor advancing.
pcthrowaway 3y ago
> Furthermore, India pays competitively enough that you’re not saving that much money for top talent as compared to e.g Eastern Europe According to levels they're probably making 15-20% the equivalent salary of github employees with similar YoE in the U.S. But you're right, eastern europeans probably have similar wages.

prottog 3y ago

> India - which is almost as large a time zone offset as you can have Not just that, it's a half-hour offset from pretty much the rest of the world! I wonder which genius thought of that one.

kylehotchkiss 3y ago
Kathmandu wanted to be even more odd and created a +5:45 offset
not2b 3y ago
It makes perfect sense: the "natural" lines would give India two time zones; combining them into one half-hour time zone gives the whole country the same time. It did cause problems with the early Bell Labs Unix releases, which didn't contemplate that a time zone might not be a whole number of hours away from Greenwich.
- prottog 3y ago
  Surely India as a large federal nation would be OK with two time zones! It makes about as much sense as China having one time zone for its sixty degrees of longitude.
  - Xixi 3y ago
    You don't have to adjust the clocks though, you can adjust business hours instead. Just look at Spain, which shares the same timezone as Poland: they simply wake up/go to bed later on the clock, but not with regard to the sun.
    - prottog 3y ago
      Spain is a good example of a politically-motivated time zone. Prior to Franco putting the country in CET to be in line with Axis powers, it was in GMT, which makes a lot more natural sense. > they simply wake up/go to bed later on the clock, but not with regard to the sun. This defeats the purpose of having time zones at all. People generally prefer the sun near overhead at noon; otherwise we would all just set our clocks to UTC no matter where we are. It would certainly make programmers' lives easier ;-)
  - not2b 3y ago
    The offset between local noon and time-zone noon is never that large, nowhere near what it's like in China, and it actually puts the center of the country closer to solar time. So it seems a reasonable thing to do, better than having the TZ line right in the middle where the railroads will keep crossing it.
  - rk06 3y ago
    Nope, we simply adjust business hours according to daylight. just like we update school hours timing in summer and winter without DST. The main advantage of having single timezone is that we can coordinate time related info(eg: train timings) unambiguously throughout the country.

throwayyy479087 3y ago

The hardest time I’ve had communicating at work has been with native English speakers from India. They have such a strong accent and such different idioms. Same to some extent with Singlish. The problem is they really are speaking perfectly legal English, with grammar better than mine, but it’s a different dialect. Not true of ESL Indians.

ebiester 3y ago
I’ve spent long enough in the industry that I am relatively comfortable with many of the accents, I would love a class to exist that teaches non-Indians the dialect.
- operatingthetan 3y ago
  I think after about a year in tech consulting I developed a pretty robust ability to understand accents that most Americans have trouble with. Chinese, Russian, Indian, Nigerian, you name it. I guess if someone wants to practice they could listen to Kitboga or something.
- jojobas 3y ago
  Right, everyone else needs to adjust to the Indian dialect of English.
  - ebiester 3y ago
    Need or else, your career may improve if you can work with a wider group of talented people.
- xeromal 3y ago
  Welcome to my ted talk: Prepone Do the needful Kindly You are now well-versed. I'm joking though. That would be a fun class to take!
beezlebroxxxxxx 3y ago
Honestly, they only issue I run into is that they tend to speak English extremely fast.

moneywoes 3y ago

Is eastern Europe the real outsourcing threat?

fwungy 3y ago
There aren't as many East Europeans.
- sacnoradhq 3y ago
  Unimportant. Educated tech workers are in much higher densities in many Eastern European countries than elsewhere. Of all European countries, these are good bets for recruiting: Austria, Belgium, Croatia, Cyprus, Czechia, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Hungary, Latvia, Poland, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Ukraine https://www.coursera.org/skills-reports/global https://www.coursera.org/skills-reports/global
sacnoradhq 3y ago
Until ~2010, Belarus was until someone went all-in with Moscow. Ukraine is (and still will be) an excellent outsourcing opportunity. Personally, I find it very easy to understand Slavic-speaking English as a secondary language speakers. In general, there can be word use, humor, and cultural media reference difficulties, so it's important to always use very plain and direct language to avoid misunderstandings. To further comprehension and understanding, it's beneficial to say the same thing again in different words and ask for their understanding of details in yet other words. PS: Early/mid 2022, I bought items on Etsy postmarked from Kyiv. Somehow, sellers forwarded parcels to Germany and Turkey and then to the US between shellings, missile attacks, and columns of Russian armor advancing.

pcthrowaway 3y ago

> Furthermore, India pays competitively enough that you’re not saving that much money for top talent as compared to e.g Eastern Europe According to levels they're probably making 15-20% the equivalent salary of github employees with similar YoE in the U.S. But you're right, eastern europeans probably have similar wages.