7 ms·

The 600 billion figure is almost certainly false. The estimates vary by a lot but most figures are in the ball park of 30 billion.

nadermx 4y ago
How so?
runamok 4y ago
Yeah, that blew my mind. I mean the Vatican is essentially a country but where does that money come from?
- e_i_pi_2 4y ago
  Church-goers pay money to their local church in tithes (generally suggested as 10% of pre-tax wages), local churches pay to their regional church, regional churches pay to the Vatican, it's a bit of a pyramid scheme but people feel like they get value from it
  - 4RealFreedom 4y ago
    "Christians are dispensed from the obligation of tithing ten percent of their incomes, but not from the obligation to help the Church." Source: https://www.catholic.com/qa/what-is-the-churchs-position-on-tithing https://www.catholic.com/qa/what-is-the-churchs-position-on-...
    - e_i_pi_2 4y ago
      > the Church teaches that offering some form of material support to the Church is obligatory for all Catholic adults who are able to do so, it doesn’t specify what percent of one’s income should be given I wasn't raised Catholic so can't speak to their practices, but this also seems to agree that it is suggested to devote some percentage of your income and it's kinda required if you're able to I think it should be more like - "Church service - $10 or free if you can't afford it", having it be tied to a percentage of the person's income is what makes it more of a pyramid scheme thing, and also seems to imply that the person owes their success to the church. I know a lot of people may believe that but it seems dangerous to encourage organizations to tell their members that they owe their success to the organization
  - gattilorenz 4y ago
    > it's a bit of a pyramid scheme In what way is this a pyramid scheme? If anything is like paying taxes to a local government, who then has to send (part of them) to the central government.
    - diceduckmonk 4y ago
      That’s a terrible analogy. Local governments also request funds from the central government. Also, people pay taxes directly to central governments.
      - gattilorenz 4y ago
        > Local governments also request funds from the central government. That can happen with the Church as well, local priests get their "salary" from a central (at the national level, not the Vatican) institution > Also, people pay taxes directly to central governments. At least in Italy you can devolve 8/1000 of your taxes to the Church, and that's not your local church but again, the national-level institution (and they redistribute it to lower levels). I think in Germany it's very similar, and probably in other countries too.
        e_i_pi_2 4y ago
        My main criticism for it being a pyramid scheme is that it's basically a very old version of self-help seminars, which overlap heavily with pyramid schemes, and they want a percentage of your income (your "downline"), and are encouraged to help recruit - so it has all the indicators
        gattilorenz 4y ago
        Except you are not requested any percentage of your income (most churchgoers give 1€/2€ per week, plus possibly a government-decided tax or tax discount, in no way mandatory), and you are not encouraged to help “recruit” (but to live your life as a christian. You are, I think, confusing the Catholic Church with Joevah’s witnesses or other denominations where the things you mention are common. You said in another post “I wasn't raised Catholic so can't speak to their practices”, except you seem to do that quite liberally…
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
cjbenedikt 4y ago
Just one example: https://web.archive.org/web/20220829164500/https://amp2.handelsblatt.com/holy-orders-germanys-catholic-church-counts-its-many-financial-blessings/23580534.html https://web.archive.org/web/20220829164500/https://amp2.hand...
fakedang 4y ago
I'm actually surprised it's not higher. The Vatican Church owns valuable land in a lot of countries around the world. I was expecting at least a few trillion. Not to mention, the artwork, the banks they own as LPs, the schools and hospitals they manage as non profit entities...
- looping__lui 4y ago
  I don’t think stuff abroad is owned by the Vatican unless it is a deliberate investment. I might be wrong, but my perception was rather that “the catholic church is operating like a franchise in which each country does as they please”. The Catholic Church in Germany is insanely rich for example. I doubt they share anything with anybody… In Germany, they get paid for the schools and hospitals (95% or so of operating expenses are covered by the government/etc in return for zero say; e.g., for a 5% share in expenses for operating a school they get to make 100% of the rules). It’s even more crazy with hospitals where they can essentially deny to provide services they don’t want to offer for “ethical reasons” or not hire “non-Catholics”. Again: this is 95% paid by the public…
  - User23 4y ago
    In Germany that is paid for with the Church tax, so it's paid by Catholics and not Germans in general.
    - Nitrolo 4y ago
      I don't think that's correct. The church tax goes directly to the church, not into state coffers. The salaries of bishops and priests, however, are paid directly by the state. In addition to that Germany is still paying reparations for land that was expropriated from the church in the early 19th century, at a tune of half a billion Euros per year, for eternity. If you speak German, this is an informative read: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchenfinanzierung https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchenfinanzierung
    - looping__lui 4y ago
      I talked about hospitals, kindergardens or schools under church operation. The government / public pays for that for the biggest part. I as a German tax payer also pay for the salaries of bishops etc. Not to me to mention religious mass festivals like “Kirchentag”: 50+% paid for by German citizens. The German church is collecting it’s “church tax” through the German IRS. And here is some fun fact: the burden of proof that you have left the church (if they happen to find out your parents baptised you) is on the individual. So, assuming that your parents had you baptised you will be liable for church taxes for the rest of your life unless you go to city hall and have it documented. The Catholic tax authority by law only is responsible to keep record of the notice that you left church for 10 years and can then demand (until the rest of your life) that you show a legal proof of having left the church. Happened to me. As a baby - you get baptised without consent. The Catholic church in Germany surely enough hunts you down for taxes until you die. In Eastern Germany there are often no good records - hence the church often forces a negotiated “settlement”.
gattilorenz 4y ago
Source?

nadermx 4y ago

How so?

runamok 4y ago

Yeah, that blew my mind. I mean the Vatican is essentially a country but where does that money come from?

e_i_pi_2 4y ago
Church-goers pay money to their local church in tithes (generally suggested as 10% of pre-tax wages), local churches pay to their regional church, regional churches pay to the Vatican, it's a bit of a pyramid scheme but people feel like they get value from it
- 4RealFreedom 4y ago
  "Christians are dispensed from the obligation of tithing ten percent of their incomes, but not from the obligation to help the Church." Source: https://www.catholic.com/qa/what-is-the-churchs-position-on-tithing https://www.catholic.com/qa/what-is-the-churchs-position-on-...
  - e_i_pi_2 4y ago
    > the Church teaches that offering some form of material support to the Church is obligatory for all Catholic adults who are able to do so, it doesn’t specify what percent of one’s income should be given I wasn't raised Catholic so can't speak to their practices, but this also seems to agree that it is suggested to devote some percentage of your income and it's kinda required if you're able to I think it should be more like - "Church service - $10 or free if you can't afford it", having it be tied to a percentage of the person's income is what makes it more of a pyramid scheme thing, and also seems to imply that the person owes their success to the church. I know a lot of people may believe that but it seems dangerous to encourage organizations to tell their members that they owe their success to the organization
- gattilorenz 4y ago
  > it's a bit of a pyramid scheme In what way is this a pyramid scheme? If anything is like paying taxes to a local government, who then has to send (part of them) to the central government.
  - diceduckmonk 4y ago
    That’s a terrible analogy. Local governments also request funds from the central government. Also, people pay taxes directly to central governments.
    - gattilorenz 4y ago
      > Local governments also request funds from the central government. That can happen with the Church as well, local priests get their "salary" from a central (at the national level, not the Vatican) institution > Also, people pay taxes directly to central governments. At least in Italy you can devolve 8/1000 of your taxes to the Church, and that's not your local church but again, the national-level institution (and they redistribute it to lower levels). I think in Germany it's very similar, and probably in other countries too.
      - e_i_pi_2 4y ago
        My main criticism for it being a pyramid scheme is that it's basically a very old version of self-help seminars, which overlap heavily with pyramid schemes, and they want a percentage of your income (your "downline"), and are encouraged to help recruit - so it has all the indicators
        gattilorenz 4y ago
        Except you are not requested any percentage of your income (most churchgoers give 1€/2€ per week, plus possibly a government-decided tax or tax discount, in no way mandatory), and you are not encouraged to help “recruit” (but to live your life as a christian. You are, I think, confusing the Catholic Church with Joevah’s witnesses or other denominations where the things you mention are common. You said in another post “I wasn't raised Catholic so can't speak to their practices”, except you seem to do that quite liberally…
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

cjbenedikt 4y ago

Just one example: https://web.archive.org/web/20220829164500/https://amp2.handelsblatt.com/holy-orders-germanys-catholic-church-counts-its-many-financial-blessings/23580534.html https://web.archive.org/web/20220829164500/https://amp2.hand...

fakedang 4y ago

I'm actually surprised it's not higher. The Vatican Church owns valuable land in a lot of countries around the world. I was expecting at least a few trillion. Not to mention, the artwork, the banks they own as LPs, the schools and hospitals they manage as non profit entities...

looping__lui 4y ago
I don’t think stuff abroad is owned by the Vatican unless it is a deliberate investment. I might be wrong, but my perception was rather that “the catholic church is operating like a franchise in which each country does as they please”. The Catholic Church in Germany is insanely rich for example. I doubt they share anything with anybody… In Germany, they get paid for the schools and hospitals (95% or so of operating expenses are covered by the government/etc in return for zero say; e.g., for a 5% share in expenses for operating a school they get to make 100% of the rules). It’s even more crazy with hospitals where they can essentially deny to provide services they don’t want to offer for “ethical reasons” or not hire “non-Catholics”. Again: this is 95% paid by the public…
- User23 4y ago
  In Germany that is paid for with the Church tax, so it's paid by Catholics and not Germans in general.
  - Nitrolo 4y ago
    I don't think that's correct. The church tax goes directly to the church, not into state coffers. The salaries of bishops and priests, however, are paid directly by the state. In addition to that Germany is still paying reparations for land that was expropriated from the church in the early 19th century, at a tune of half a billion Euros per year, for eternity. If you speak German, this is an informative read: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchenfinanzierung https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchenfinanzierung
  - looping__lui 4y ago
    I talked about hospitals, kindergardens or schools under church operation. The government / public pays for that for the biggest part. I as a German tax payer also pay for the salaries of bishops etc. Not to me to mention religious mass festivals like “Kirchentag”: 50+% paid for by German citizens. The German church is collecting it’s “church tax” through the German IRS. And here is some fun fact: the burden of proof that you have left the church (if they happen to find out your parents baptised you) is on the individual. So, assuming that your parents had you baptised you will be liable for church taxes for the rest of your life unless you go to city hall and have it documented. The Catholic tax authority by law only is responsible to keep record of the notice that you left church for 10 years and can then demand (until the rest of your life) that you show a legal proof of having left the church. Happened to me. As a baby - you get baptised without consent. The Catholic church in Germany surely enough hunts you down for taxes until you die. In Eastern Germany there are often no good records - hence the church often forces a negotiated “settlement”.

gattilorenz 4y ago

Source?