6 ms·

> always has been from the earliest civilizations Can you provide something to support your statement?

kossTKR 4y ago
I mean it's literally right in standard macro-history; religious cults, clubs, closed societies in all forms through literally all ages. A newer very interesting book on the subject going back even further: [The Power of Ritual in Prehistory Secret Societies and Origins of Social Complexity](https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/power-of-ritual-in-prehistory/1C80D07EC1D8036E3633F8A8F4527467 https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/power-of-ritual-in-preh...) I find it weird that - especially americans - still don't think in terms of groups, but see the individual as the driver of history - a historiographical school that has been outdated for 70 years now.
- logicalmonster 4y ago
  > americans still don't think in terms of groups As an American, I find this statement radically perplexing. Through the scourge of identity politics, we do nothing but categorize people into groups in basically every avenue of society. You can't go to college without your group affecting you. You can't find a good job without your group mattering. Individualists who essentially want to take the Martin Luther King Jr speech literally (I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.) can be castigated as the most vile people by some for not wanting to treat anybody differently from anybody else.
  - paulluuk 4y ago
    > You can't go to college without your group affecting you. You can't find a good job without your group mattering. Do you have any evidence to back this up? Which "group-membership" prevents you from going to college or getting a good job? Edit: I think I misunderstood, obviously different ethnical groups have different experiences in their careers and lives in general.
    - pc86 4y ago
      Just ask anyone, of any group, and they'll tell you how being in their group made both of these harder while less qualified people of the other groups had it easier than they did.
      - paulluuk 4y ago
        You're right, I'm not sure what I was thinking. I thought OP was hinting that being white was preventing them from going to college or getting a good job because of positive discrimination, but now I'm not sure how to interpret their comment any more and my reply is very dumb.
    - logicalmonster 4y ago
      You are presenting a strawman. I did not say that you are prevented from going to college or getting a good job, but your group can affect your life outcome and does matter in these decisions. Look at the Asian-American discrimination case against Harvard entrance as one of many examples.
      - paulluuk 4y ago
        It was not my intention to present a strawman: I assumed that by "affect" you really did mean "prevent". I.e. being Asian-American prevents some people from gaining entrance to Harvard, in this case.
  - kossTKR 4y ago
    Identity politics is exactly the kind of circus that is opposite analysis of the power dynamics in society. Realpolitics or material analysis - "follow the money" is the only way to understand the networks of power but that's not allowed because a tiny class of people want to stay in the shadows for good reason. Culture wars are very convenient, and yes very annoying.
    - logicalmonster 4y ago
      Any form of class war, or even a basic examination of the conduct of the 1%, has been masterfully replaced by culture war in America. There's a reason that mega-corporations are going full-tilt in pretending to support THE CURRENT THING (TM). For the price of a few pieces of ribbon and a few tearful benedictions, they've managed to placate the useful idiot crowd and distract them from what really matters.
soVeryTired 4y ago
It’s a bit perplexing that you’d even ask this. Wouldn’t it be incredibly surprising if people in early civilisations never conspired with one another?
logicalmonster 4y ago
Is a citation of human nature really necessary?
hoseja 4y ago
Have you ever given any thought to how human collectives actually work.

I mean it's literally right in standard macro-history; religious cults, clubs, closed societies in all forms through literally all ages. A newer very interesting book on the subject going back even further: [The Power of Ritual in Prehistory Secret Societies and Origins of Social Complexity](https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/power-of-ritual-in-prehistory/1C80D07EC1D8036E3633F8A8F4527467 https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/power-of-ritual-in-preh...) I find it weird that - especially americans - still don't think in terms of groups, but see the individual as the driver of history - a historiographical school that has been outdated for 70 years now.

logicalmonster 4y ago
> americans still don't think in terms of groups As an American, I find this statement radically perplexing. Through the scourge of identity politics, we do nothing but categorize people into groups in basically every avenue of society. You can't go to college without your group affecting you. You can't find a good job without your group mattering. Individualists who essentially want to take the Martin Luther King Jr speech literally (I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.) can be castigated as the most vile people by some for not wanting to treat anybody differently from anybody else.
- paulluuk 4y ago
  > You can't go to college without your group affecting you. You can't find a good job without your group mattering. Do you have any evidence to back this up? Which "group-membership" prevents you from going to college or getting a good job? Edit: I think I misunderstood, obviously different ethnical groups have different experiences in their careers and lives in general.
  - pc86 4y ago
    Just ask anyone, of any group, and they'll tell you how being in their group made both of these harder while less qualified people of the other groups had it easier than they did.
    - paulluuk 4y ago
      You're right, I'm not sure what I was thinking. I thought OP was hinting that being white was preventing them from going to college or getting a good job because of positive discrimination, but now I'm not sure how to interpret their comment any more and my reply is very dumb.
  - logicalmonster 4y ago
    You are presenting a strawman. I did not say that you are prevented from going to college or getting a good job, but your group can affect your life outcome and does matter in these decisions. Look at the Asian-American discrimination case against Harvard entrance as one of many examples.
    - paulluuk 4y ago
      It was not my intention to present a strawman: I assumed that by "affect" you really did mean "prevent". I.e. being Asian-American prevents some people from gaining entrance to Harvard, in this case.
- kossTKR 4y ago
  Identity politics is exactly the kind of circus that is opposite analysis of the power dynamics in society. Realpolitics or material analysis - "follow the money" is the only way to understand the networks of power but that's not allowed because a tiny class of people want to stay in the shadows for good reason. Culture wars are very convenient, and yes very annoying.
  - logicalmonster 4y ago
    Any form of class war, or even a basic examination of the conduct of the 1%, has been masterfully replaced by culture war in America. There's a reason that mega-corporations are going full-tilt in pretending to support THE CURRENT THING (TM). For the price of a few pieces of ribbon and a few tearful benedictions, they've managed to placate the useful idiot crowd and distract them from what really matters.

soVeryTired 4y ago

It’s a bit perplexing that you’d even ask this. Wouldn’t it be incredibly surprising if people in early civilisations never conspired with one another?

logicalmonster 4y ago

Is a citation of human nature really necessary?

hoseja 4y ago

Have you ever given any thought to how human collectives actually work.