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There are also probably very personal and biological variables involved too that the post doesn't mention. I stare into monitors and phones all day long. Every

There are also probably very personal and biological variables involved too that the post doesn't mention. I stare into monitors and phones all day long. Every light in the house is full-blown LED. I can't help but fall asleep at 20:00 in an led lit room watching led TVs, while my led phone drops onto the floor after I've fallen asleep. I've been in an extreme LED environment for over a decade and never have problems waking up at 6:30 and falling asleep in bed at 22:00. I totally agree with concern raised by the article, but I also think it lacks the whole picture of someone's lifestyle. People have struggled with sleep issues well before LEDs.

glitchc 4y ago
Age may be a factor. Falling asleep wasn't an issue when I was younger, but it did get tougher in middle age.
jahsome 4y ago
I've battled the opposite in the form of clinical, anxiety-driven insomnia my whole life. I've found it utterly debilitating at times and have quite literally struggled since birth, long before electronics and LEDs were common. I can confidently say you're so right about the number (and type) of variables. Sleep hygiene as we say in the biz is a very complex and personal issue. I've tried everything under the sun from strict routine, screen avoidance, both abstinence from and ample sex, more reading, less reading, zero caffeine, limited caffeine, ALL THE CAFFEINE, changes to diet, fasting, supplements, and even medication. There are usually relatively minor, short lived improvements but it's only a matter of time before I'm spending my nights once again staring at the ceiling, mind at full-tilt. Whenever sleep comes up in conversation, and I mention my struggles, I feel like invariably I'm met with a response along the lines of "you _just_ have to...", and "have you ever tried ...?" followed by some arbitrary rule or herbal remedy. Since about the the introduction of the first iPad, consensus seems to have formed the root of all sleep evil is screentime. Sleep (for some) is an incredibly sensitive and personal struggle. Alarmist "mankind is doomed!" make it even harder to understand the greater picture. It's closely related to diet. There's always some fad trending, and a number of people who find success in choosing a "better" diet almost always have a system they'll fervently claim is The Way. The science is relatively clear on light though. I just appear to be some form of mutant.
- piazz 4y ago
  You sound like me (unfortunately). Did you ever find anything that helped?
  - luma 4y ago
    Not a solution that works or is available to everyone, but for me, small doses of marijuana taken just before bed has changed my world. I’m currently traveling and in a state where that isn’t an option and I haven’t had more then 4 hours in each of the past few nights. Will be glad to get some rest tomorrow.
    - joveian 4y ago
      I (unfortunately) am sometimes exposed to second hand marijuana smoke (from other people in the building smoking) and it does seem like there might be some positive effect in my case (there are a bunch of different types and I have no idea which ones I've been exposed to). A major negative is that marijuana is usually grown with heavy pesticide use (even the certified organic stuff) so unless you grow it yourself it isn't really healthy. Of course, smoking anything is also not healthy but you don't need to smoke it (and shouldn't). Also, many things help with sleep short term but with long term use you go back to normal (except that often quitting makes things worse for a while). I've also had bad insomnia most of my life (and a non-24 hour circadian rhythm starting somewhat over a decade later). Early on it seemed to be anxiety/racing thoughts related and what finally mostly prevented that part for me was meditation. I still occasionally stay awake due to racing thoughts but not often. Unfortunately, that didn't ultimately help with the insomnia, which got somewhat worse (or at least different) over time :(. The meditation method I used goes like this: 1) In general, althernate between focusing your attention on your breath as it touches your skin above your mouth (since it does that all the time you can kind of feel it and not feel it at the same time) and either active or passive muscle relaxation (mostly active unless you are getting tired enough not to feel like it). 2) For active relaxation, tense muscles in one group a time (I doubt the exact organization matters, I think I used three or four groups: arms and hands, core muscles, legs, and possibly feet) for several seconds and then feel the contrasting relaxation for a while after you release them. For passive, just tell yourself you are relaxing those particular muscles and try to feel them relax. 3) The time split between focusing on your breath and relaxing muscles doesn't matter, if you are having trouble focusing on your breath then just switch to a relaxation cycle. 4) For getting to sleep, wandering thoughts are fine. What you want to avoid is strong emotional reactions to your thoughts, including a feedback loops such as where something feels like an excitingly good idea (when you are half asleep and not so good at evaluating what is a good idea) and that leads to other thoughts that feel like good ideas or building on the same idea. If you really thing something is a good idea get out of bed and write it down along with enough follow up throughts to find the same stream of thought the next day (should it prove interesting to do so, which is not usually the case in my experience). Otherwise go back to the relaxation/breath cycle when you notice you have a stronger emotional reaction to your thoughts. Other feedback loops include remembering past mistakes or bad events (which can either then go to moment by moment recall of one event or remind you of other similarish situations) and focusing on a difficult current situation (again either going into detail about the current situation or often recalling any memory connected to anyone or anything involved in the situation). It may (or may not) be helpful to think of it as a type of internal drug addiction and you are trying to recognize when drugs that keep you awake are released internally rather than noticing particular thoughts. 5) Visualization can make it easier get to sleep if you are able to do it, so you can try imagining yourself on a warm beach as you do the breath focus and relaxation. I can usually only do that when I am about to get to sleep, if I happen to think of it (and noticing I'm about to get to sleep can make it harder to actually get to sleep :( ). Also, make sure you are actually sufficiently warm (and not too warm if you can avoid it) since that can sometimes be surprisingly difficult to notice even if it is keeping you awake. 6) I didn't become a world class meditator over the decades I've had insomnia, I mostly just try to use it when I notice racing thoughts, which is not that often these days (infrequent enough to not always think of it when it does happen :( ). I think it was 5-10 years that I meditated frequently before racing thoughts were rarely an issue, although it was very quickly obvious that it was helping. I've lately been thinking that I should try it again more regularly to see if it could help some even without racing thoughts (however, I don't think the circadian issue is affected much if at all by the meditation). Some people find a formal Cognative Behavioral Therapy course to be helpful (or reading books that cover the same techniques), however some of the techniques won't work at all if you have circadian issues (and could make the circadian issues worse).
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dathinab 4y ago
I mean the problem with many of the studies quoted and referred to in the article is that they are about correlation but fail to show causation outside of "that seems right if you approach it with a mind which has already been biased to believe it". For example night work independent of light has _a lot_ of ways it can negatively affect people, cause stress and in turn increase the risk of cancer. And while the relationship between melatonin and blue light does exist the magnitude of it's effect (compared to other factors) is much less clear and might vary hugely between people. Especially when it comes to reasons why you sleep is bad there are docents non melatonin related problems of which the negative effect can by far outweigh any melatonin difference caused by blue light.
12345hn6789 4y ago
N = 1
iforgotpassword 4y ago
I'm also like this, very rarely do I have trouble falling asleep and usually it's because I can't stop thinking about something. But I feel like it's really that I'm just that tired in the evenings, and feel like I always needed more sleep than the average person. We'd need stats about the number of people reporting problems with falling asleep and quality of sleep over the decades I guess. This might very well just be something that manages to push people over the edge and thus makes a difference, just not for those of us who are at the more extreme ends of the spectrum. Also even if it doesn't affect my sleep quality noticeably, I wonder about the cancer risk part; is that a direct result of worse sleep, or might that still affect me?
mihaaly 4y ago
I can sleep in a sunny day outside at noon (lots of blue light around) like a baby! : ) (which was very handy living 5 years at the polar circle. the only off thing was discovering a ca 26 hours daily cycle of mine in a long stretch of solitary work and lots of food at home, when I did not have to sync my activities with any single human being for more than a week during a summer)

glitchc 4y ago

Age may be a factor. Falling asleep wasn't an issue when I was younger, but it did get tougher in middle age.

jahsome 4y ago

I've battled the opposite in the form of clinical, anxiety-driven insomnia my whole life. I've found it utterly debilitating at times and have quite literally struggled since birth, long before electronics and LEDs were common. I can confidently say you're so right about the number (and type) of variables. Sleep hygiene as we say in the biz is a very complex and personal issue. I've tried everything under the sun from strict routine, screen avoidance, both abstinence from and ample sex, more reading, less reading, zero caffeine, limited caffeine, ALL THE CAFFEINE, changes to diet, fasting, supplements, and even medication. There are usually relatively minor, short lived improvements but it's only a matter of time before I'm spending my nights once again staring at the ceiling, mind at full-tilt. Whenever sleep comes up in conversation, and I mention my struggles, I feel like invariably I'm met with a response along the lines of "you _just_ have to...", and "have you ever tried ...?" followed by some arbitrary rule or herbal remedy. Since about the the introduction of the first iPad, consensus seems to have formed the root of all sleep evil is screentime. Sleep (for some) is an incredibly sensitive and personal struggle. Alarmist "mankind is doomed!" make it even harder to understand the greater picture. It's closely related to diet. There's always some fad trending, and a number of people who find success in choosing a "better" diet almost always have a system they'll fervently claim is The Way. The science is relatively clear on light though. I just appear to be some form of mutant.

piazz 4y ago
You sound like me (unfortunately). Did you ever find anything that helped?
- luma 4y ago
  Not a solution that works or is available to everyone, but for me, small doses of marijuana taken just before bed has changed my world. I’m currently traveling and in a state where that isn’t an option and I haven’t had more then 4 hours in each of the past few nights. Will be glad to get some rest tomorrow.
  - joveian 4y ago
    I (unfortunately) am sometimes exposed to second hand marijuana smoke (from other people in the building smoking) and it does seem like there might be some positive effect in my case (there are a bunch of different types and I have no idea which ones I've been exposed to). A major negative is that marijuana is usually grown with heavy pesticide use (even the certified organic stuff) so unless you grow it yourself it isn't really healthy. Of course, smoking anything is also not healthy but you don't need to smoke it (and shouldn't). Also, many things help with sleep short term but with long term use you go back to normal (except that often quitting makes things worse for a while). I've also had bad insomnia most of my life (and a non-24 hour circadian rhythm starting somewhat over a decade later). Early on it seemed to be anxiety/racing thoughts related and what finally mostly prevented that part for me was meditation. I still occasionally stay awake due to racing thoughts but not often. Unfortunately, that didn't ultimately help with the insomnia, which got somewhat worse (or at least different) over time :(. The meditation method I used goes like this: 1) In general, althernate between focusing your attention on your breath as it touches your skin above your mouth (since it does that all the time you can kind of feel it and not feel it at the same time) and either active or passive muscle relaxation (mostly active unless you are getting tired enough not to feel like it). 2) For active relaxation, tense muscles in one group a time (I doubt the exact organization matters, I think I used three or four groups: arms and hands, core muscles, legs, and possibly feet) for several seconds and then feel the contrasting relaxation for a while after you release them. For passive, just tell yourself you are relaxing those particular muscles and try to feel them relax. 3) The time split between focusing on your breath and relaxing muscles doesn't matter, if you are having trouble focusing on your breath then just switch to a relaxation cycle. 4) For getting to sleep, wandering thoughts are fine. What you want to avoid is strong emotional reactions to your thoughts, including a feedback loops such as where something feels like an excitingly good idea (when you are half asleep and not so good at evaluating what is a good idea) and that leads to other thoughts that feel like good ideas or building on the same idea. If you really thing something is a good idea get out of bed and write it down along with enough follow up throughts to find the same stream of thought the next day (should it prove interesting to do so, which is not usually the case in my experience). Otherwise go back to the relaxation/breath cycle when you notice you have a stronger emotional reaction to your thoughts. Other feedback loops include remembering past mistakes or bad events (which can either then go to moment by moment recall of one event or remind you of other similarish situations) and focusing on a difficult current situation (again either going into detail about the current situation or often recalling any memory connected to anyone or anything involved in the situation). It may (or may not) be helpful to think of it as a type of internal drug addiction and you are trying to recognize when drugs that keep you awake are released internally rather than noticing particular thoughts. 5) Visualization can make it easier get to sleep if you are able to do it, so you can try imagining yourself on a warm beach as you do the breath focus and relaxation. I can usually only do that when I am about to get to sleep, if I happen to think of it (and noticing I'm about to get to sleep can make it harder to actually get to sleep :( ). Also, make sure you are actually sufficiently warm (and not too warm if you can avoid it) since that can sometimes be surprisingly difficult to notice even if it is keeping you awake. 6) I didn't become a world class meditator over the decades I've had insomnia, I mostly just try to use it when I notice racing thoughts, which is not that often these days (infrequent enough to not always think of it when it does happen :( ). I think it was 5-10 years that I meditated frequently before racing thoughts were rarely an issue, although it was very quickly obvious that it was helping. I've lately been thinking that I should try it again more regularly to see if it could help some even without racing thoughts (however, I don't think the circadian issue is affected much if at all by the meditation). Some people find a formal Cognative Behavioral Therapy course to be helpful (or reading books that cover the same techniques), however some of the techniques won't work at all if you have circadian issues (and could make the circadian issues worse).

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

dathinab 4y ago

I mean the problem with many of the studies quoted and referred to in the article is that they are about correlation but fail to show causation outside of "that seems right if you approach it with a mind which has already been biased to believe it". For example night work independent of light has _a lot_ of ways it can negatively affect people, cause stress and in turn increase the risk of cancer. And while the relationship between melatonin and blue light does exist the magnitude of it's effect (compared to other factors) is much less clear and might vary hugely between people. Especially when it comes to reasons why you sleep is bad there are docents non melatonin related problems of which the negative effect can by far outweigh any melatonin difference caused by blue light.

12345hn6789 4y ago

N = 1

iforgotpassword 4y ago

I'm also like this, very rarely do I have trouble falling asleep and usually it's because I can't stop thinking about something. But I feel like it's really that I'm just that tired in the evenings, and feel like I always needed more sleep than the average person. We'd need stats about the number of people reporting problems with falling asleep and quality of sleep over the decades I guess. This might very well just be something that manages to push people over the edge and thus makes a difference, just not for those of us who are at the more extreme ends of the spectrum. Also even if it doesn't affect my sleep quality noticeably, I wonder about the cancer risk part; is that a direct result of worse sleep, or might that still affect me?

mihaaly 4y ago

I can sleep in a sunny day outside at noon (lots of blue light around) like a baby! : ) (which was very handy living 5 years at the polar circle. the only off thing was discovering a ca 26 hours daily cycle of mine in a long stretch of solitary work and lots of food at home, when I did not have to sync my activities with any single human being for more than a week during a summer)