6 ms·

What do you mean by "not particularly limited" in scope? It seems to me the intent of the provision is that more is required to run afoul of the provision, e.g

by hesitz 15y ago

What do you mean by "not particularly limited" in scope? It seems to me the intent of the provision is that more is required to run afoul of the provision, e.g., that a site also be "designed or operated primarily for the purpose" of enabling or facilitating illegal activity. I give you that the provision is ambiguous. If so, then that is the problem. Say "The provision is ambiguous." Don't say that it clearly allows third parties to shut down sites like Youtube or Khan Academy. Whether it does or not depends on which way you resolve the ambiguity. (I don't think anyone really believes the current ambiguity would be resolved in court as you or Sal Khan say it must be. The problem is that there is a small risk it could be interpreted that way, which is too much risk to take with something so important.) Also, I assume SOPA-advocates would be willing to make this provision more clear, to remove the ambiguity. What is your response if the SOPA-advocates amend the language to unambiguously limit the language to avoid the criticism that "it allows shutdown of _any_ site that merely enables or facilitates", so it clearly also requires that the site have been designed with the purpose of aiding that illegal activity? What is your criticism then? Is SOPA okay then?

dhimes 15y ago
If we need a law, let's put a law in place with clearly limited authority, not one where reasonable people can wholly disagree about what it says. I've never understood why lawyers tolerate ambiguity in the law. But maybe I'm wrong: how can abuse be prevented if this is passed? If abuse starts, how can it be stopped without court action? I'm still reeling from the '90s when Microsoft considered court battles just another field of play for their business. Be illegal. Drive competition out of business. Fight in court. Lose sometimes and pay fine. Net win. Let me ask you this; it may seem unrelated, but it's not: When I bought my iphone, I was required to enter a contractual agreement with ATT at the same time. Then Apple changed its TOS for the iphone. I could accept or lose its functionality. If I refused, would I be let out of the contract with ATT? Would I have to go to court to find out? Unfortunately the business climate today is "do what you can until somebody stops you."
- hesitz 15y ago
  It's impossible to completely avoid ambiguity and vagueness in law. Lawyers don't enact laws, legislators do. And lawyers don't "tolerate ambiguity"; lawyers exist in large part because it takes experts to know how enacted laws will be interpreted by courts (in part because of their inevitable vagueness and ambiguity). Legislators can and usually do try to lessen ambiguity and vagueness in laws they enact, with varying degrees of success. (Like I said, there will virtually _always_ arise factual situations where a law previously though unambiguous and clear turns out to be not to have been unambiguous and clear _enough_. It is the nature of language and rule-making. E.g., how does one supposedly clear and unambiguous law interact with another clear and unambiguous law when they conflict and require different things? Or another example, how should a court interpret a particular statutory provision that, as written, appears to conflict with the general intent of the Act the provision is in? Interpret the particular provision as it reads in isolation? or interpret the provision in a way that seems somewhat odd when it's read in isolation but which makes perfect sense within its Act as a whole?) I don't know about your iPhone TOS. You could do some research and/or retain a lawyer to get a legal opinion on what the law requires, which is presumably what a court would do if confronted with your case. If the issue (or a nearly identical issue) has previously been litigated, then the previous court decision will have some (varying) degree of precedential value for your own case. In case of you and your iPhone issue, this is nothing new. Many everyday situations arise where there simply is no practical way to dispute another party's interpretation of a contract or license. This sort of "do what you can until somebody stops you" has been going on forever. (Class actions exist as one way to avoid this problem in situations where numerous individuals with limited resources are wronged in same way by a more powerful defendant, but the solution they provide is limited at best.)
  - dhimes 15y ago
    While "bug-free" laws may be impossible to write, I do not excuse legislation that is this sloppy. Turar (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3482567 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3482567) was able to write it as such. And the idea that I have to retain a lawyer to check for precedent on the terms of service of a mass-consumer-product is simply absurd, and if that is the world in which we live I will take whatever humble measures I can to change it as the opportunities may arise.

by hesitz 15y ago

dhimes 15y ago

If we need a law, let's put a law in place with clearly limited authority, not one where reasonable people can wholly disagree about what it says. I've never understood why lawyers tolerate ambiguity in the law. But maybe I'm wrong: how can abuse be prevented if this is passed? If abuse starts, how can it be stopped without court action? I'm still reeling from the '90s when Microsoft considered court battles just another field of play for their business. Be illegal. Drive competition out of business. Fight in court. Lose sometimes and pay fine. Net win. Let me ask you this; it may seem unrelated, but it's not: When I bought my iphone, I was required to enter a contractual agreement with ATT at the same time. Then Apple changed its TOS for the iphone. I could accept or lose its functionality. If I refused, would I be let out of the contract with ATT? Would I have to go to court to find out? Unfortunately the business climate today is "do what you can until somebody stops you."

hesitz 15y ago
It's impossible to completely avoid ambiguity and vagueness in law. Lawyers don't enact laws, legislators do. And lawyers don't "tolerate ambiguity"; lawyers exist in large part because it takes experts to know how enacted laws will be interpreted by courts (in part because of their inevitable vagueness and ambiguity). Legislators can and usually do try to lessen ambiguity and vagueness in laws they enact, with varying degrees of success. (Like I said, there will virtually _always_ arise factual situations where a law previously though unambiguous and clear turns out to be not to have been unambiguous and clear _enough_. It is the nature of language and rule-making. E.g., how does one supposedly clear and unambiguous law interact with another clear and unambiguous law when they conflict and require different things? Or another example, how should a court interpret a particular statutory provision that, as written, appears to conflict with the general intent of the Act the provision is in? Interpret the particular provision as it reads in isolation? or interpret the provision in a way that seems somewhat odd when it's read in isolation but which makes perfect sense within its Act as a whole?) I don't know about your iPhone TOS. You could do some research and/or retain a lawyer to get a legal opinion on what the law requires, which is presumably what a court would do if confronted with your case. If the issue (or a nearly identical issue) has previously been litigated, then the previous court decision will have some (varying) degree of precedential value for your own case. In case of you and your iPhone issue, this is nothing new. Many everyday situations arise where there simply is no practical way to dispute another party's interpretation of a contract or license. This sort of "do what you can until somebody stops you" has been going on forever. (Class actions exist as one way to avoid this problem in situations where numerous individuals with limited resources are wronged in same way by a more powerful defendant, but the solution they provide is limited at best.)
- dhimes 15y ago
  While "bug-free" laws may be impossible to write, I do not excuse legislation that is this sloppy. Turar (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3482567 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3482567) was able to write it as such. And the idea that I have to retain a lawyer to check for precedent on the terms of service of a mass-consumer-product is simply absurd, and if that is the world in which we live I will take whatever humble measures I can to change it as the opportunities may arise.