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It cuts both ways. What about the homeless person dying in the cold because he can't afford shelter due to sky high building requirements - is that included in

It cuts both ways. What about the homeless person dying in the cold because he can't afford shelter due to sky high building requirements - is that included in the building code enforcement rules?

toiletfuneral 4y ago
[dead]
biggieshellz 4y ago
That's more due to exclusionary zoning than building codes. There is no reason why we couldn't build, for instance, a boarding house under modern building codes, which would create more affordable housing on the low end. The reason that doesn't get built is that the zoning doesn't allow it.
- xxpor 4y ago
  That's partially true, but it's really a combo of both. Things like dual staircase requirements, elevator size requirements, and sprinkler requirements make it extremely expensive to build any sort of housing. A recent affordable building in SF cost over $1 million per unit. That's completely unsustainable.
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    > Things like dual staircase requirements, elevator size requirements, and sprinkler requirements make it extremely expensive to build any sort of housing. And you want and need precisely that in a house with fluctuating occupants of which a high percentage will have some sort of mental health issue. Cutting corners on boarding houses will lead to fire catastrophes.
    - xxpor 4y ago
      No but here's the thing: for all of those regulations, the US still has more fire deaths than most of Europe. So they're not working anyway! https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/1608825332412583938 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/160882533241258393...
      - mschuster91 4y ago
        Defense in depth at work.
    - kqr 4y ago
      > Cutting corners on boarding houses will lead to fire catastrophes. Nobody denies this. The question is whether said fire catastrophes really claim more lives than homelessness and wintering on the street. (Obviously fire catastrophes are a bigger PR problem and get more media attention, but is that really the appropriate metric for human suffering?)
      - mschuster91 4y ago
        They don't, but fire catastrophes are one of the most gruesome ways to die - and worse, a fire can always spread around and endanger even more people. There are reasons why fire codes are among the oldest laws in humanity.
        pvaldes 4y ago
        A good advice is to remember that in case of fire what kills people most of the times, is the smoke. Having extinguishers -and- breathing bottles could help. Maybe there is room for designing a new product that would act as two in one?.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > The reason that doesn't get built is that the zoning doesn't allow it. The problem is not just zoning. A boarding house simply doesn't generate noticeable income compared to standard residential housing, and with exploding land prices it simply makes no sense financially to cater to poor people.
  - fragmede 4y ago
    If only there were some sort of organization that didn't need make a profit and wasn't "run like a business". One that everyone gave money to, for the benefit of all society, to make things better all, but especially for the lowest on the totem pole. If only such an organization existed! It could be in charge of governing the people, and the people could choose who runs it with some sort of choosen-ing procedure.
- wongarsu 4y ago
  Or just regular medium density housing, like say 4-story 8 unit buildings. The stuff that makes up the majority of the housing stock in most Western countries, but seems impossible to build in most of the US due to zoning.
- jmole 4y ago
  Setback, minimum square footage, minimum parking are all part of “building codes”, and can be used to enforce zoning and restrict development without sounding as political as “zoning”.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    And those can be safety issues too.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Waterluvian 4y ago
I don't think I've seen a case where the local government wants to build more housing but, gosh, they're just too expensive. It's usually NIMBYism or just general disinterest in a "non-sexy" political issue.
- moonchrome 4y ago
  This is entirely a "rich parts of the west" kind of a thing - and has nothing to do with Turkey
  - Waterluvian 4y ago
    I think the earthquake is a standalone counter-argument to not wanting proper safety standards. Of the remaining buildings, how many are to be condemned as unsafe? I'm not sure what the homelessness problem is in Turkey, but I imagine it's now far worse.
- conanbatt 4y ago
  Government does not build housing at all.
  - fragmede 4y ago
    Maybe where you are, but in other parts of the world (eg Singapore), the government does!
giantrobot 4y ago
> What about the homeless person dying in the cold because he can't afford shelter due to sky high building requirements - is that included in the building code enforcement rules? That's ridiculous. There's a hundred different issues causing a homeless person to die on the street. Building code regulations are way down that fucking list of somewhat barely related causes.
r_hoods_ghost 4y ago
That's not because of building codes. That's because of people who don't believe in helping their fellow man through, oh I don't know, paying taxes, supporting the welfare state, paying living wages etc.
- commandlinefan 4y ago
  > don't believe in helping their fellow man Well, ok, since you started it - how much do you, personally, donate to homeless shelters and food banks? You have a lot of discretionary income to do so since your taxes are lower than you appear that you would like them to be.
  - fragmede 4y ago
    Do you? If not, the SF Marin food bank would love your help! As little as a $20 one time donation would be appreciated. If you have an excess of time, in person volunteering is also deeply appreciated. Spoiler alert: Unfortunately, no matter how much money or time you give to this organization, or similar, the ills of capitalism inflicted on the poorest residents in the area won't be solved. I still donate anyway though. https://donate.sfmfoodbank.org/page/32140/donate/1 https://donate.sfmfoodbank.org/page/32140/donate/1
  - ornornor 4y ago
    Parent was talking about taxes, not quite the same as donating.
  - cguess 4y ago
    These shouldn't be supported by charity, thus the welfare state. It should be a burden put on all tax payers so that help can be provided beyond just what I feel like donating to. That's literally the point of taxes, and arguing that they should be higher isn't negated just because I personally don't donate to charities. It should be society as a whole (while given a progressive tax rate).
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    I should not have to donate a single penny to a charity to end homelessness. The US is a rich as fuck country, and has every ability to end poverty, up to and including increasing taxes for well off people like me. Am I really supposed to believe that we could build an entire cargo ship every 3 days out of 18 shipyards in 1942, but we somehow can't build a million simple and dirt cheap homes?

It cuts both ways. What about the homeless person dying in the cold because he can't afford shelter due to sky high building requirements - is that included in the building code enforcement rules?

toiletfuneral 4y ago

[dead]

biggieshellz 4y ago

That's more due to exclusionary zoning than building codes. There is no reason why we couldn't build, for instance, a boarding house under modern building codes, which would create more affordable housing on the low end. The reason that doesn't get built is that the zoning doesn't allow it.

xxpor 4y ago
That's partially true, but it's really a combo of both. Things like dual staircase requirements, elevator size requirements, and sprinkler requirements make it extremely expensive to build any sort of housing. A recent affordable building in SF cost over $1 million per unit. That's completely unsustainable.
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > Things like dual staircase requirements, elevator size requirements, and sprinkler requirements make it extremely expensive to build any sort of housing. And you want and need precisely that in a house with fluctuating occupants of which a high percentage will have some sort of mental health issue. Cutting corners on boarding houses will lead to fire catastrophes.
  - xxpor 4y ago
    No but here's the thing: for all of those regulations, the US still has more fire deaths than most of Europe. So they're not working anyway! https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/1608825332412583938 https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/160882533241258393...
    - mschuster91 4y ago
      Defense in depth at work.
  - kqr 4y ago
    > Cutting corners on boarding houses will lead to fire catastrophes. Nobody denies this. The question is whether said fire catastrophes really claim more lives than homelessness and wintering on the street. (Obviously fire catastrophes are a bigger PR problem and get more media attention, but is that really the appropriate metric for human suffering?)
    - mschuster91 4y ago
      They don't, but fire catastrophes are one of the most gruesome ways to die - and worse, a fire can always spread around and endanger even more people. There are reasons why fire codes are among the oldest laws in humanity.
      - pvaldes 4y ago
        A good advice is to remember that in case of fire what kills people most of the times, is the smoke. Having extinguishers -and- breathing bottles could help. Maybe there is room for designing a new product that would act as two in one?.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
mschuster91 4y ago
> The reason that doesn't get built is that the zoning doesn't allow it. The problem is not just zoning. A boarding house simply doesn't generate noticeable income compared to standard residential housing, and with exploding land prices it simply makes no sense financially to cater to poor people.
- fragmede 4y ago
  If only there were some sort of organization that didn't need make a profit and wasn't "run like a business". One that everyone gave money to, for the benefit of all society, to make things better all, but especially for the lowest on the totem pole. If only such an organization existed! It could be in charge of governing the people, and the people could choose who runs it with some sort of choosen-ing procedure.
wongarsu 4y ago
Or just regular medium density housing, like say 4-story 8 unit buildings. The stuff that makes up the majority of the housing stock in most Western countries, but seems impossible to build in most of the US due to zoning.
jmole 4y ago
Setback, minimum square footage, minimum parking are all part of “building codes”, and can be used to enforce zoning and restrict development without sounding as political as “zoning”.
- kube-system 4y ago
  And those can be safety issues too.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Waterluvian 4y ago

I don't think I've seen a case where the local government wants to build more housing but, gosh, they're just too expensive. It's usually NIMBYism or just general disinterest in a "non-sexy" political issue.

moonchrome 4y ago
This is entirely a "rich parts of the west" kind of a thing - and has nothing to do with Turkey
- Waterluvian 4y ago
  I think the earthquake is a standalone counter-argument to not wanting proper safety standards. Of the remaining buildings, how many are to be condemned as unsafe? I'm not sure what the homelessness problem is in Turkey, but I imagine it's now far worse.
conanbatt 4y ago
Government does not build housing at all.
- fragmede 4y ago
  Maybe where you are, but in other parts of the world (eg Singapore), the government does!

giantrobot 4y ago

> What about the homeless person dying in the cold because he can't afford shelter due to sky high building requirements - is that included in the building code enforcement rules? That's ridiculous. There's a hundred different issues causing a homeless person to die on the street. Building code regulations are way down that fucking list of somewhat barely related causes.

r_hoods_ghost 4y ago

That's not because of building codes. That's because of people who don't believe in helping their fellow man through, oh I don't know, paying taxes, supporting the welfare state, paying living wages etc.

commandlinefan 4y ago
> don't believe in helping their fellow man Well, ok, since you started it - how much do you, personally, donate to homeless shelters and food banks? You have a lot of discretionary income to do so since your taxes are lower than you appear that you would like them to be.
- fragmede 4y ago
  Do you? If not, the SF Marin food bank would love your help! As little as a $20 one time donation would be appreciated. If you have an excess of time, in person volunteering is also deeply appreciated. Spoiler alert: Unfortunately, no matter how much money or time you give to this organization, or similar, the ills of capitalism inflicted on the poorest residents in the area won't be solved. I still donate anyway though. https://donate.sfmfoodbank.org/page/32140/donate/1 https://donate.sfmfoodbank.org/page/32140/donate/1
- ornornor 4y ago
  Parent was talking about taxes, not quite the same as donating.
- cguess 4y ago
  These shouldn't be supported by charity, thus the welfare state. It should be a burden put on all tax payers so that help can be provided beyond just what I feel like donating to. That's literally the point of taxes, and arguing that they should be higher isn't negated just because I personally don't donate to charities. It should be society as a whole (while given a progressive tax rate).
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  I should not have to donate a single penny to a charity to end homelessness. The US is a rich as fuck country, and has every ability to end poverty, up to and including increasing taxes for well off people like me. Am I really supposed to believe that we could build an entire cargo ship every 3 days out of 18 shipyards in 1942, but we somehow can't build a million simple and dirt cheap homes?