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This is great news. Honestly, I hope to see more nationalization of widely used services (or whatever the equivalent word for nationalization is at state or mun

This is great news. Honestly, I hope to see more nationalization of widely used services (or whatever the equivalent word for nationalization is at state or municipal levels.) Municipal broadband, power, roads, schools, post, housing, and healthcare? It's long overdue, and with an appropriate amount of funding has been shown to be effective at controlling costs and delivering moderately good quality in most cases. A lot of things get so warped by profit motive. And there are places I want a profit motive, but insulin (and healthcare generally) isn't one.

cheaprentalyeti 4y ago
You say that as if healthcare isn't extremely regulated already and as if the regulation weren't a big factor in allowing these companies to monopolize the production of insulin. (Or, my favorite example back when I needed the stuff, colchisine.)
- cuteboy19 4y ago
  Nationalization is different though. It's not possible for anyone to monopolize it
AnEro 4y ago
Honestly though some industry's products/services verifiably don't improve end user/customer experiences from maximizing profits. It's hard not to see it at this point
- SuoDuanDao 4y ago
  It makes sense that to improve end user experience you need competition. Works great in restaurants. Anywhere with network effects (utilities) or legal barriers to entry (healthcare) doesn't tend to compete away poor results.
rayiner 4y ago
> Municipal broadband, power, roads, schools, post, housing, and healthcare? It's long overdue, and with an appropriate amount of funding has been shown to be effective at controlling costs and delivering moderately good quality in most cases. Where? The US has among the highest percentage of kids going to government owned and operated schools. We have plenty of government housing as well (projects). Nearly all of our roads and transit systems are publicly owned and operated too. Almost uniformly, those government operated systems aren’t very good—in America. And it doesn’t have to do with “funding.” If you compare with Europe, we spend more money per student, per transit rider, and per public housing resident, etc.
- miguelazo 4y ago
  There are many causes of lackluster public education, and funding is definitely one of them. Another huge one is the ability of parents who have the time and resources to divert their children (likely already at a huge advantage) to private and charter schools, thereby skewing the public school below the median in a vicious circle. I’ve seen this exact dynamic play out in many of the cities I have lived. It’s also why newer suburbs (avoiding legacy costs and filled with upwardly mobile, resourced families) have excellent public schools.
  - OkayPhysicist 4y ago
    It's difficult to overstate just how huge selection bias can get in the education space. I went to a high school in the Bay Area, one of a handful in my city. (1) Houses in our attendance area were ~$500,000+x more expensive than ones right across the street in another attendance area, because our school was "better". Why was it better? Because the parents paying an extra half million dollars to get their kid into a better school were going to make sure their kid did better, come hell or high water. So there were lots and lots and lots of after-school tutoring centers, where students would get taught the highschool material in advance, so that they would already know it forward and back when they were tested on it. Which makes the school test well, and thus look better than the other schools in the area, raising housing prices. x += $100,000; GOTO (1). The actual quality of the education was substandard, but there is something to be said for being embedded in an environment where academic failure was simply not considered an option.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    > There are many causes of lackluster public education, and funding is definitely one of them Explain why some of the worst school systems are some of the best funded. https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/more-than-75-percent-test-elementary-level-math-reading-baltimore-city-high-school https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/more-than-75... https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/baltimore-city-schools-spending-per-student-2022-enrollment-performance-kirwan-new-york-boston-washington https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/baltimore-ci...
WalterBright 4y ago
> has been shown to be effective at controlling costs That has never happened. What does happen is the cost is borne by the taxpayer rather than the user of the service. The "warping" of the profit motive in the insulin case is entirely caused by government interference and regulation (by making it nearly impossible for competitors to spin up and make insulin).
- cuteboy19 4y ago
  There are many cases where the government can produce things at cost and bankrupt for profit companies. It's not always effective but the situation is quite dire at this point
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    > There are many cases where the government can produce things at cost Yes, and the costs are always higher than that of a for profit company. > the situation is quite dire at this point Right. The solution is to remove the regulatory and legal barriers that add $190 in cost to a dose.
- Spooky23 4y ago
  Not really. The internet is an example of what happens when you suck margin out of high margin businesses like content creators. India is an example for pharmaceuticals. If the state takes a commodity and sells it on a cost plus or cost basis, it’s going to kill investment in the spaces and collapse the margin. At this point, we’re killing people and bankrupting states and employees with out of control costs. Making an example out of insulin would fix that and constrain some of the players in the market.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    > Making an example out of insulin would fix that No it won't. It will just shift the cost to the taxpayers.
    - 4y ago
kybernetyk 4y ago
>Municipal broadband, power, roads, schools, post, housing, and healthcare? It's long overdue, Yeah, everything was great under the state owned telco monopolies. Let's get back to that!
- subtypefiddler 4y ago
  In the case of municipal broadband it mostly comes from communities that suffer form poor/no investment from the big players and is the only recourse for decent internet. It usually is faster and cheaper than existing solutions. There's clearly market failure here and players abusing their local monopolies to refrain from investing / provide decent service. The state of telco in the US is pretty shocking, even in places like NY state.
anonuser123456 4y ago
If you study the insulin pricing issue carefully, you will find that largely the problem is government, not the market. The profit motive coupled with competition works very well to keep prices low. You need only realize the following; European firms stand at the ready to supply insulin at well below US prices today, but are prevented from doing so by the FDA. And they can do so and still turn a profit.
- swayvil 4y ago
  Can I, in the usa, order my insulin to be delivered from Europe? If not then it's a fabulous opportunity for an enterprising smuggler.
  - anonuser123456 4y ago
    Insulin has a cold chain requirement, so smuggling is not recommended.

cheaprentalyeti 4y ago

You say that as if healthcare isn't extremely regulated already and as if the regulation weren't a big factor in allowing these companies to monopolize the production of insulin. (Or, my favorite example back when I needed the stuff, colchisine.)

cuteboy19 4y ago
Nationalization is different though. It's not possible for anyone to monopolize it

AnEro 4y ago

Honestly though some industry's products/services verifiably don't improve end user/customer experiences from maximizing profits. It's hard not to see it at this point

SuoDuanDao 4y ago
It makes sense that to improve end user experience you need competition. Works great in restaurants. Anywhere with network effects (utilities) or legal barriers to entry (healthcare) doesn't tend to compete away poor results.

rayiner 4y ago

> Municipal broadband, power, roads, schools, post, housing, and healthcare? It's long overdue, and with an appropriate amount of funding has been shown to be effective at controlling costs and delivering moderately good quality in most cases. Where? The US has among the highest percentage of kids going to government owned and operated schools. We have plenty of government housing as well (projects). Nearly all of our roads and transit systems are publicly owned and operated too. Almost uniformly, those government operated systems aren’t very good—in America. And it doesn’t have to do with “funding.” If you compare with Europe, we spend more money per student, per transit rider, and per public housing resident, etc.

miguelazo 4y ago
There are many causes of lackluster public education, and funding is definitely one of them. Another huge one is the ability of parents who have the time and resources to divert their children (likely already at a huge advantage) to private and charter schools, thereby skewing the public school below the median in a vicious circle. I’ve seen this exact dynamic play out in many of the cities I have lived. It’s also why newer suburbs (avoiding legacy costs and filled with upwardly mobile, resourced families) have excellent public schools.
- OkayPhysicist 4y ago
  It's difficult to overstate just how huge selection bias can get in the education space. I went to a high school in the Bay Area, one of a handful in my city. (1) Houses in our attendance area were ~$500,000+x more expensive than ones right across the street in another attendance area, because our school was "better". Why was it better? Because the parents paying an extra half million dollars to get their kid into a better school were going to make sure their kid did better, come hell or high water. So there were lots and lots and lots of after-school tutoring centers, where students would get taught the highschool material in advance, so that they would already know it forward and back when they were tested on it. Which makes the school test well, and thus look better than the other schools in the area, raising housing prices. x += $100,000; GOTO (1). The actual quality of the education was substandard, but there is something to be said for being embedded in an environment where academic failure was simply not considered an option.
- rayiner 4y ago
  > There are many causes of lackluster public education, and funding is definitely one of them Explain why some of the worst school systems are some of the best funded. https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/more-than-75-percent-test-elementary-level-math-reading-baltimore-city-high-school https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/more-than-75... https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/baltimore-city-schools-spending-per-student-2022-enrollment-performance-kirwan-new-york-boston-washington https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/baltimore-ci...

WalterBright 4y ago

> has been shown to be effective at controlling costs That has never happened. What does happen is the cost is borne by the taxpayer rather than the user of the service. The "warping" of the profit motive in the insulin case is entirely caused by government interference and regulation (by making it nearly impossible for competitors to spin up and make insulin).

cuteboy19 4y ago
There are many cases where the government can produce things at cost and bankrupt for profit companies. It's not always effective but the situation is quite dire at this point
- WalterBright 4y ago
  > There are many cases where the government can produce things at cost Yes, and the costs are always higher than that of a for profit company. > the situation is quite dire at this point Right. The solution is to remove the regulatory and legal barriers that add $190 in cost to a dose.
Spooky23 4y ago
Not really. The internet is an example of what happens when you suck margin out of high margin businesses like content creators. India is an example for pharmaceuticals. If the state takes a commodity and sells it on a cost plus or cost basis, it’s going to kill investment in the spaces and collapse the margin. At this point, we’re killing people and bankrupting states and employees with out of control costs. Making an example out of insulin would fix that and constrain some of the players in the market.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  > Making an example out of insulin would fix that No it won't. It will just shift the cost to the taxpayers.
  - 4y ago

kybernetyk 4y ago

>Municipal broadband, power, roads, schools, post, housing, and healthcare? It's long overdue, Yeah, everything was great under the state owned telco monopolies. Let's get back to that!

subtypefiddler 4y ago
In the case of municipal broadband it mostly comes from communities that suffer form poor/no investment from the big players and is the only recourse for decent internet. It usually is faster and cheaper than existing solutions. There's clearly market failure here and players abusing their local monopolies to refrain from investing / provide decent service. The state of telco in the US is pretty shocking, even in places like NY state.

anonuser123456 4y ago

If you study the insulin pricing issue carefully, you will find that largely the problem is government, not the market. The profit motive coupled with competition works very well to keep prices low. You need only realize the following; European firms stand at the ready to supply insulin at well below US prices today, but are prevented from doing so by the FDA. And they can do so and still turn a profit.

swayvil 4y ago
Can I, in the usa, order my insulin to be delivered from Europe? If not then it's a fabulous opportunity for an enterprising smuggler.
- anonuser123456 4y ago
  Insulin has a cold chain requirement, so smuggling is not recommended.