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But that's wrong. There is no position for this in a civilised society: "If we ask everyone is going to say no, so we will steal it unless someone tells us not

by wrldos 4y ago

But that's wrong. There is no position for this in a civilised society: "If we ask everyone is going to say no, so we will steal it unless someone tells us not to"

BonoboIO 4y ago
I think the comparison of telemetry and stealing is pretty harsh. Is opt-out telemetry unethical ... depends. If you use it in a privacy preserving way no, if you spy on your Users, sell the data for money or advertising obviously it is unethical. The hard truth is, nobody reads the manual. Opt in telemetry is often a minority, and you then work with niche data for a minority that influences your development in certain ways.
- wrldos 4y ago
  But is that not the decision of the person who owns the data?
  - philosopher1234 4y ago
    The world is full of people making decisions for one another. Did you consent to unix files not flushing on every write() call? Its not a meaningful complaint.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  It really all boils down to meaningful consent. > if you spy on your Users In my opinion, any data collection about me or my machines that occurs without my active informed consent is "spying". This is my fundamental problem with opt-out mechanisms. They do not indicate or imply that active consent was obtained.
  - BonoboIO 4y ago
    A Flash screen at installtime that logging is on an you can disable it in the settings. Would that be enough for you?
    - simoncion 4y ago
      Unless a Windows user is installing the software, that screen would be displayed in approximately zero of the cases where a package manager was used to install the software. Similarly, exactly zero widely-used Docker images that contain the software would display this splash screen, as the software would already have been installed. In short, unless you're a Windows user there are so __very__ many ways to install software that aren't "Go to the project home page, download a generic install binary, run that binary with world-write permissions.". Aside from very small-time projects, I can't think of the last time I used an officially-maintained install script that I got from the project's servers to install something.
    - JohnFen 4y ago
      It would be better than nothing, but not really adequate. There are numerous circumstances where such a screen is impossible or impractical, and if every program did this, it would be as good as not doing it because people will react to it like they react to other common warning dialogs -- not really seeing it at all.
lokar 4y ago
That’s not their argument. They say if you ask everyone if it is ok most just ignore your question.
- wrldos 4y ago
  That's how they presented their argument. It can be presented both ways depending on how you want to promote it.
  - lokar 4y ago
    Not responding is not the same as responding no
    - account42 4y ago
      It is when it comes to giving informed consent.

by wrldos 4y ago

But that's wrong. There is no position for this in a civilised society: "If we ask everyone is going to say no, so we will steal it unless someone tells us not to"

BonoboIO 4y ago

I think the comparison of telemetry and stealing is pretty harsh. Is opt-out telemetry unethical ... depends. If you use it in a privacy preserving way no, if you spy on your Users, sell the data for money or advertising obviously it is unethical. The hard truth is, nobody reads the manual. Opt in telemetry is often a minority, and you then work with niche data for a minority that influences your development in certain ways.

wrldos 4y ago
But is that not the decision of the person who owns the data?
- philosopher1234 4y ago
  The world is full of people making decisions for one another. Did you consent to unix files not flushing on every write() call? Its not a meaningful complaint.
JohnFen 4y ago
It really all boils down to meaningful consent. > if you spy on your Users In my opinion, any data collection about me or my machines that occurs without my active informed consent is "spying". This is my fundamental problem with opt-out mechanisms. They do not indicate or imply that active consent was obtained.
- BonoboIO 4y ago
  A Flash screen at installtime that logging is on an you can disable it in the settings. Would that be enough for you?
  - simoncion 4y ago
    Unless a Windows user is installing the software, that screen would be displayed in approximately zero of the cases where a package manager was used to install the software. Similarly, exactly zero widely-used Docker images that contain the software would display this splash screen, as the software would already have been installed. In short, unless you're a Windows user there are so __very__ many ways to install software that aren't "Go to the project home page, download a generic install binary, run that binary with world-write permissions.". Aside from very small-time projects, I can't think of the last time I used an officially-maintained install script that I got from the project's servers to install something.
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    It would be better than nothing, but not really adequate. There are numerous circumstances where such a screen is impossible or impractical, and if every program did this, it would be as good as not doing it because people will react to it like they react to other common warning dialogs -- not really seeing it at all.

lokar 4y ago

That’s not their argument. They say if you ask everyone if it is ok most just ignore your question.

wrldos 4y ago
That's how they presented their argument. It can be presented both ways depending on how you want to promote it.
- lokar 4y ago
  Not responding is not the same as responding no
  - account42 4y ago
    It is when it comes to giving informed consent.