5 ms·

Have 40% transgender people attempted suicide primarily because they are being bullied by society or because they have a mental disorder where their body doesn'

Have 40% transgender people attempted suicide primarily because they are being bullied by society or because they have a mental disorder where their body doesn't match their brain and they become depressed because it is physically impossible to reconcile those differences, so they spiral into despair? Genuine question, I just don't know how to tiptoe around this in a 2023 acceptable way without asking it bluntly. Sounds like we need better medical treatment if half of people with the condition want to commit suicide, and telling people on the internet to stop bullying and putting colorful flags in your twitter profile won't suffice. Not advocating for hate, just saying that it seems the medical community delegated this whole thing to society with a note of 'please be nice and everything will sort itself out'.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
etchalon 4y ago
People were making the "they're committing suicide because their brain is wrong so we need to fix their brain" argument about homosexuality back in the 90s. Research has pretty firmly come down on the "nah, it's society." side of things.
- daveslash 4y ago
  If I understood temp_account_32's point correctly, the comment about the mental health was not "they're trans, therefore their brains _must_ be wired wrong", so much as it was "before they transition, they're often so distraught over their identity and who they see in the mirror, that it often causes despair and depression". I agree with you that research has pretty firmly come down on the side of "nah, it's society" for the former. I think the latter is a fair point. To pin it all on society I find to be disingenuous. Transitioning can be a healthy thing in that case. Disclaimer: am not trans, so I openly admit I may be totally ignorant and off base.
  - etchalon 4y ago
    It's not all society's fault, but research has shown that the distress and depression of being outside societal defaults is greatly lessened when support is available and acceptance wide spread.
    - daveslash 4y ago
      Yes. Completely agree. To suggest that it's all society's fault is disingenuous. To suggest that society is fault-free is reckless and cruel, and society's part is not a small piece of the pie either. Society needs to step up to address the societal aspect of the issue as part of a multi-pronged approach.
- mensetmanusman 4y ago
  It’s also impossible to decouple mental health from your surroundings, i.e. society etc.
notch898a 4y ago
Transgender is no longer classified as a mental disorder. Any attempt to have a discussion on this, I've found, has to overcome this semantics. If there is no disorder in the individual, obviously society is fully to blame. https://nicic.gov/being-transgender-no-longer-mental-disorder-apa-2012 https://nicic.gov/being-transgender-no-longer-mental-disorde...
crote 4y ago
The medical community didn't delegate it to society. Transitioning is an effective and proven treatment, which has a far higher rate of success than basically any other psychiatry-related treatment. The medical part is pretty much solved, and those physical differences can be reconciled quite well. But as it turns out, the hate from society still remains, and it still has an effect. Turns out being happy is a bit tricky when it is literally a coin flip whether the person you are talking to believes you should be murdered merely for existing.
- NoZebra120vClip 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - freejazz 4y ago
    You are proving mjamesaustin's point.
- somsak2 4y ago
  The treatments I'm familiar with, especially those that are assisted by prescription drugs, are quite new and unsupported. it's hard to find any studies of this stuff at all. the amount we know about efficacy here is shockingly low. if you have references, I'd welcome them.
  - crote 4y ago
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24344788/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24344788/ https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-009-9551-1 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-009-9551-1 https://mayoclinic.pure.elsevier.com/en/publications/hormonal-therapy-and-sex-reassignment-a-systematic-review-and-met https://mayoclinic.pure.elsevier.com/en/publications/hormona... https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-014-0453-5 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-014-0453-5 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23553588_Long-term_Assessment_of_the_Physical_Mental_and_Sexual_Health_among_Transsexual_Women https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23553588_Long-term_... http://europepmc.org/article/med/25690443 http://europepmc.org/article/med/25690443 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2265.2009.03625.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2265.... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29463477/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29463477/ If by "quite new and unsupported" you mean "pioneered in the 1920s, well-established for many decades, backed by dozends of studies, and successfully applied to hundreds of thousands of patients worldwide", then yes - it is indeed quite new and unsupported. If you want to read just one study, why not start with the last one? The Amsterdam Cohort consists of 6,793 people since 1972. That should be plenty to start with. If you want even more, I recommend reading the "Standards of Care for the Health of Transgender and Gender Diverse People". Currently in its eighth edition, it describes the entire process, with hundreds of additional studies cited.
roughly 4y ago
Research on youth suicide rates shows an extremely high correlation with the family and social environment, in that family support and at least some welcoming spaces dramatically lower suicide rates among trans youth. The Trevor Project collects research on these lines: https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/article/facts-about-lgbtq-youth-suicide/ https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/article/facts-abo...
- notch898a 4y ago
  Looked at the page. Says: LGBTQ youth are not inherently prone to suicide risk because of their sexual orientation or gender identity but rather placed at higher risk because of how they are mistreated and stigmatized in society. This is a remarkable claim that demands proof. This seems to be a well thought out, researched, website therefore it can't be some oversight that they just spout this without evidence.
  - roughly 4y ago
    There's a lot of proof linked from that page. I presume you've read it all and have some specific disagreement?
    - notch898a 4y ago
      I'm looking for the citation for this: LGBTQ youth are not inherently prone to suicide risk because of their sexual orientation or gender identity but rather placed at higher risk because of how they are mistreated and stigmatized in society. The citations show these individuals are placed at higher risk in association with mistreatment. I couldn't find the citations for the rest of the statement, including the 'rather' bit.
      - GaryNumanVevo 4y ago
        I think it should be a given that psychological safety is linked to suicide risk: do your own research if this seems like a stretch https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=psychological+safety+and+suicide+rate https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=psychological+safety+an...
superjan 4y ago
Edit: never mind this comment, but can’t delete anymore. Don’t remember where I heard this. If your brain does not get exposed to the ‘right’ set of hormones at the right time while you’re in the womb, your brain can develop a different gender identity than the rest of your body. This can be the explanation for some trans people, but I don’t know how many.
- xcxs 4y ago
  This is just a hypothesis, there's no evidence for this.
- vehemenz 4y ago
  What does it mean to suggest the brain has a "different gender identity?" Surely we are not reverting back to mind/body dualism?
teaearlgraycold 4y ago
> because it is physically impossible to reconcile those differences Impossible to reconcile when they’re blocked from effective treatment. In a decent society trans people would be given treatment when asked for.
freejazz 4y ago
>Have 40% transgender people attempted suicide primarily because they are being bullied by society or because they have a mental disorder where their body doesn't match their brain and they become depressed because it is physically impossible to reconcile those differences, so they spiral into despair? What's the difference when so many US states are now prohibiting treatement for this?
lilacat 4y ago
Proper medical care has been shown to improve the mental health of trans people, but the social isolation is still a major factor. Trans people can undergo medical transition to better align their bodies to their sense of self, but they often end up losing friends and family in the process, and face discrimination when it comes to finding work or housing, or simply just existing in the world. Not to mention many places currently have laws, or are pushing new laws, to limit trans individuals' access to things like medical care and other necessities.
jimbob45 4y ago
[flagged]
mrguyorama 4y ago
>Sounds like we need better medical treatment if half of people with the condition want to commit suicide We KNOW exactly what to do and how to help trans people be happy and successful and not want to kill themselves: Preferred gender supporting care, treating them like the human beings they are, hormones for those who are confident enough to not regret it. Here's what half the country currently votes for instead: Banning trans people from bathrooms, banning books that acknowledge the existence and acceptableness of trans people, calling trans people pedophiles and groomers on large public news channels, generally just making """jokes""" that amount to "if you are trans then you are stupid and broken and don't deserve to live"
xcxs 4y ago
> Have 40% transgender people attempted suicide They haven't. This is an invented statistic that just gets repeated and repeated until people accept it as if it's truth.
- harambae 4y ago
  Yeah "Blocked and Reported" Episode 149 (Jan 28, 2023) debunks this stat over a good 10 or 15 minutes for anyone that cares. The flaw was in how the survey was conducted. I won't try to repeat it here- it's a long explanation to do justice.
mensetmanusman 4y ago
It’s mental disorder issue, but mental health is so stigmatized that it’s phobic to suggest someone needs mental health help. It’s analogous to helping someone walk off a bridge and feeling like a hero for helping someone.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

etchalon 4y ago

People were making the "they're committing suicide because their brain is wrong so we need to fix their brain" argument about homosexuality back in the 90s. Research has pretty firmly come down on the "nah, it's society." side of things.

daveslash 4y ago
If I understood temp_account_32's point correctly, the comment about the mental health was not "they're trans, therefore their brains _must_ be wired wrong", so much as it was "before they transition, they're often so distraught over their identity and who they see in the mirror, that it often causes despair and depression". I agree with you that research has pretty firmly come down on the side of "nah, it's society" for the former. I think the latter is a fair point. To pin it all on society I find to be disingenuous. Transitioning can be a healthy thing in that case. Disclaimer: am not trans, so I openly admit I may be totally ignorant and off base.
- etchalon 4y ago
  It's not all society's fault, but research has shown that the distress and depression of being outside societal defaults is greatly lessened when support is available and acceptance wide spread.
  - daveslash 4y ago
    Yes. Completely agree. To suggest that it's all society's fault is disingenuous. To suggest that society is fault-free is reckless and cruel, and society's part is not a small piece of the pie either. Society needs to step up to address the societal aspect of the issue as part of a multi-pronged approach.
mensetmanusman 4y ago
It’s also impossible to decouple mental health from your surroundings, i.e. society etc.

notch898a 4y ago

Transgender is no longer classified as a mental disorder. Any attempt to have a discussion on this, I've found, has to overcome this semantics. If there is no disorder in the individual, obviously society is fully to blame. https://nicic.gov/being-transgender-no-longer-mental-disorder-apa-2012 https://nicic.gov/being-transgender-no-longer-mental-disorde...

crote 4y ago

The medical community didn't delegate it to society. Transitioning is an effective and proven treatment, which has a far higher rate of success than basically any other psychiatry-related treatment. The medical part is pretty much solved, and those physical differences can be reconciled quite well. But as it turns out, the hate from society still remains, and it still has an effect. Turns out being happy is a bit tricky when it is literally a coin flip whether the person you are talking to believes you should be murdered merely for existing.

NoZebra120vClip 4y ago
[flagged]
- freejazz 4y ago
  You are proving mjamesaustin's point.
somsak2 4y ago
The treatments I'm familiar with, especially those that are assisted by prescription drugs, are quite new and unsupported. it's hard to find any studies of this stuff at all. the amount we know about efficacy here is shockingly low. if you have references, I'd welcome them.
- crote 4y ago
  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24344788/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24344788/ https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-009-9551-1 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-009-9551-1 https://mayoclinic.pure.elsevier.com/en/publications/hormonal-therapy-and-sex-reassignment-a-systematic-review-and-met https://mayoclinic.pure.elsevier.com/en/publications/hormona... https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-014-0453-5 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-014-0453-5 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23553588_Long-term_Assessment_of_the_Physical_Mental_and_Sexual_Health_among_Transsexual_Women https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23553588_Long-term_... http://europepmc.org/article/med/25690443 http://europepmc.org/article/med/25690443 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2265.2009.03625.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2265.... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29463477/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29463477/ If by "quite new and unsupported" you mean "pioneered in the 1920s, well-established for many decades, backed by dozends of studies, and successfully applied to hundreds of thousands of patients worldwide", then yes - it is indeed quite new and unsupported. If you want to read just one study, why not start with the last one? The Amsterdam Cohort consists of 6,793 people since 1972. That should be plenty to start with. If you want even more, I recommend reading the "Standards of Care for the Health of Transgender and Gender Diverse People". Currently in its eighth edition, it describes the entire process, with hundreds of additional studies cited.

roughly 4y ago

Research on youth suicide rates shows an extremely high correlation with the family and social environment, in that family support and at least some welcoming spaces dramatically lower suicide rates among trans youth. The Trevor Project collects research on these lines: https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/article/facts-about-lgbtq-youth-suicide/ https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/article/facts-abo...

notch898a 4y ago
Looked at the page. Says: LGBTQ youth are not inherently prone to suicide risk because of their sexual orientation or gender identity but rather placed at higher risk because of how they are mistreated and stigmatized in society. This is a remarkable claim that demands proof. This seems to be a well thought out, researched, website therefore it can't be some oversight that they just spout this without evidence.
- roughly 4y ago
  There's a lot of proof linked from that page. I presume you've read it all and have some specific disagreement?
  - notch898a 4y ago
    I'm looking for the citation for this: LGBTQ youth are not inherently prone to suicide risk because of their sexual orientation or gender identity but rather placed at higher risk because of how they are mistreated and stigmatized in society. The citations show these individuals are placed at higher risk in association with mistreatment. I couldn't find the citations for the rest of the statement, including the 'rather' bit.
    - GaryNumanVevo 4y ago
      I think it should be a given that psychological safety is linked to suicide risk: do your own research if this seems like a stretch https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=psychological+safety+and+suicide+rate https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=psychological+safety+an...

superjan 4y ago

Edit: never mind this comment, but can’t delete anymore. Don’t remember where I heard this. If your brain does not get exposed to the ‘right’ set of hormones at the right time while you’re in the womb, your brain can develop a different gender identity than the rest of your body. This can be the explanation for some trans people, but I don’t know how many.

xcxs 4y ago
This is just a hypothesis, there's no evidence for this.
vehemenz 4y ago
What does it mean to suggest the brain has a "different gender identity?" Surely we are not reverting back to mind/body dualism?

teaearlgraycold 4y ago

> because it is physically impossible to reconcile those differences Impossible to reconcile when they’re blocked from effective treatment. In a decent society trans people would be given treatment when asked for.

freejazz 4y ago

>Have 40% transgender people attempted suicide primarily because they are being bullied by society or because they have a mental disorder where their body doesn't match their brain and they become depressed because it is physically impossible to reconcile those differences, so they spiral into despair? What's the difference when so many US states are now prohibiting treatement for this?

lilacat 4y ago

Proper medical care has been shown to improve the mental health of trans people, but the social isolation is still a major factor. Trans people can undergo medical transition to better align their bodies to their sense of self, but they often end up losing friends and family in the process, and face discrimination when it comes to finding work or housing, or simply just existing in the world. Not to mention many places currently have laws, or are pushing new laws, to limit trans individuals' access to things like medical care and other necessities.

jimbob45 4y ago

[flagged]

mrguyorama 4y ago

>Sounds like we need better medical treatment if half of people with the condition want to commit suicide We KNOW exactly what to do and how to help trans people be happy and successful and not want to kill themselves: Preferred gender supporting care, treating them like the human beings they are, hormones for those who are confident enough to not regret it. Here's what half the country currently votes for instead: Banning trans people from bathrooms, banning books that acknowledge the existence and acceptableness of trans people, calling trans people pedophiles and groomers on large public news channels, generally just making """jokes""" that amount to "if you are trans then you are stupid and broken and don't deserve to live"

xcxs 4y ago

> Have 40% transgender people attempted suicide They haven't. This is an invented statistic that just gets repeated and repeated until people accept it as if it's truth.

harambae 4y ago
Yeah "Blocked and Reported" Episode 149 (Jan 28, 2023) debunks this stat over a good 10 or 15 minutes for anyone that cares. The flaw was in how the survey was conducted. I won't try to repeat it here- it's a long explanation to do justice.

mensetmanusman 4y ago

It’s mental disorder issue, but mental health is so stigmatized that it’s phobic to suggest someone needs mental health help. It’s analogous to helping someone walk off a bridge and feeling like a hero for helping someone.