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I have lifted for 30 years. The standard bullshit line in the fitness industry has always been "everyone else is wrong". Practically what every single trainer

I have lifted for 30 years. The standard bullshit line in the fitness industry has always been "everyone else is wrong". Practically what every single trainer ever in the world has said. The reason is because of all the things I have done in my life, lifting is the most trivially simple activity there is. It is as complex as shoveling dirt. The only way to differentiate if trying to make money is to bullshit. Pick the weights up, put them down, eat food. It just not that complicated.

ezconnect 4y ago
Their BS is the value add you get for paying them more money.
leidenfrost 4y ago
For those who want to look athletic enough, work a full time job and still have free time, sure. Actual competitive bodybuilding is far more complicated.
- iamacyborg 4y ago
  > Actual competitive bodybuilding is far more complicated. Sure, but that's a general truism. People focus too much on the 1% micro-optimisations instead of nailing the 99% that produces the largest rewards. I like how Steve Magness puts it[^1] > Good, solid consistent work stacked month after month, year after year is what leads to better performance. [^1]: https://twitter.com/stevemagness/status/1493946400442392589?lang=en-GB https://twitter.com/stevemagness/status/1493946400442392589?...
  - short_sells_poo 4y ago
    This 100%, but I think it is also just the proliferation of information today. 99% of the gain is about a very simple set of exercises. I maintain that most people would get a superb musculature with just cycling/running, squats, deadlifts and bench presses (ignoring pre-existing injuries). 4 exercises where the most complex machinery is a bike, and even that can be replaced with running. Doing it consistently is the key. But then two problems happen: 1. People try to find shortcuts to make things easier. This is basic human nature. 2. While looking for ways of making it easier, a huge pile of salesmen insert themselves into people's attention, peddling the latest program, diet, fad, complex equipment (hello Peloton), etc. At that point, anyone who doesn't have >10 years of experience with their own body will simply be lost and unable to discern true good advice from drivel. As pointed out before, there's no money to be made, no "value to be added" to 4 dead simple exercises with a one off expenditure. There's no subscription to be sold, nothing can be turned into a service if the equipment lasts several lifetimes. The weights you buy yourself can be passed down to your kids, and they will likely be able to pass it down to their kids. A hunk of chromed steel can last a very long time, the only thing you have to buy is maybe running shoes or gears for your bike.
    - iamacyborg 4y ago
      The other bit you’re potentially missing is folks just want to emulate the “big” workouts that folks show off on social media. Which conveniently ignores the bread and butter boring stuff that’s actually critical to building effective fitness/whatever.
    - scruple 4y ago
      > most people would get a superb musculature with just cycling/running, squats, deadlifts and bench presses (ignoring pre-existing injuries). FWIW, you just described the essence of the Tactical Barbell system here. I've been using it to great effect over the last ~4 years. I will probably never touch a different strength and conditioning program as long as I live.
      - red-iron-pine 4y ago
        And most of Strong-Lifts 5x5. They add in a couple other movements but basically the same idea.
        scruple 4y ago
        Yeah, but at some point an LP stops being a productive use of time. I prefer wave/block and undulating periodization programs because I never feel like I'm anywhere in the vicinity of failure and I'm always fresh for hard conditioning the day after a strength or hypertrophy session.
btrautsc 4y ago
This is one of my all-time favorite HN quotes: "Pick the weights up, put them down, eat food. It just not that complicated." Sincerely brought a smile to my face.
atlantic 4y ago
No offence, but as someone who worked in construction, shovelling is actually not simple at all. And working with a pick is even more complex. There are all kinds of optimizations you can introduce to avoid back injury and to maintain a steady rhythm over an eight-hour workday.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- moonchrome 4y ago
  Just like lifting - but past a certain fairly easy to reach point it's just about repetition and micro optimization.
mateo- 4y ago
Darn, I can't find it. There's a guy who claims his only form of workout is just moving a massive pile of dirt back and forth in his yard. Significant because he's a pro athlete of some sort but I forget what he does -- NFL, UFC, strongman... One day I'll stumble upon it again and come back here and share. Just thought it was funny to compare it to shoveling dirt when that's actually what an elite athlete does somewhere out in the world lol
JeremyNT 4y ago
The problem here is that there really are many little optimizations that could be applied to "pick up, put down" and some do work. Injury avoidance and recovery in particular are easy to overlook. Of course the magnitude of the effect from most optimizations is small, so it's pretty easy for con artists to claim some secret or new breakthrough. At the very highest levels people want every edge they can get, but it's silly for most of us who aren't devoted to competition to go down these rabbit holes. Pick up / put down / don't get hurt goes quite a long way.
12345hn6789 4y ago
I mean sure you can say this about the majority of things. Programming is just typing away and compiling your program. It's not that complicated. If you want to be proficient at BB / power lifting / <weight-lifting activity>, doing more research and optimizing is important
- 9dev 4y ago
  But most people don’t want to be proficient. They want to stay mostly healthy and get laid
  - 12345hn6789 4y ago
    Getting healthy and looking good is the base line. If you workout for 6 months and don't see immediate changes you probably did something wrong. If you workout for 12 months and aren't looking better youre not proficient
voytec 4y ago
> The standard bullshit line in the fitness industry has always been "everyone else is wrong". Practically what every single trainer ever in the world has said. I find YouTube trainers' flame wars quite enjoyable. They tend to get triggered by comments or other trainers' videos and publish angry (to me - funny) videos in response. Recent clip from Athlean-X (something about "worst fitness youtuber") is a good example. So much energy wasted on nagging. When I want to listen to someone who appears to know their shit, I put dr. Mike from Renaissance Periodization[1] on. [1] https://www.youtube.com/c/RenaissancePeriodization https://www.youtube.com/c/RenaissancePeriodization
AlwaysRock 4y ago
Yup. Everything else is either bull shit or an attempt to optimize. Unless you are a body builder or a pro athlete you really should focus on consistency more than optimization. Getting 1% better results for the average person is going to be nullified by the beers they drink on the weekend/the multiple days they skip because they dont feel like working out/any number of other normal life actives that are not optimal. Find a way to exercise that you enjoy it and do it often. After that don't think about it too much. Recently I've been riding an exercise bike after work while playing a video game on my computer with an xbox controller. Every 5 minutes I hop off the bike and do some weight training then get back on the bike. I ride for an hour. Doing this most weekdays has lead to far better results than when I used to go to the gym because I actually do it everyday/most days and I don't rdread it.
- danenania 4y ago
  Another tip in this vein that I've found helpful when it comes to strength training, especially on days you feel tired or unmotivated, is to not count the reps. Just do as many as you can with good form and then stop. Trying to always hit some number creates unnecessary stress and frustration when you can't get there, and causes injury when form breaks down and/or you push too far. The point is to fatigue the muscle, not do some particular number of reps. If you're feeling good and want to test yourself or go for a PR, that's great, but if it makes you feel bad or you start dreading workouts, stop counting!
  - AlwaysRock 4y ago
    Great advice. Again, unless you are a body builder the reps really dont even matter.
  - marknutter 4y ago
    While this is better than not working out at all, the only way you're going to get your muscles to grow is by progressively overloading consistently over time, and if you have too many sessions where you aren't pushing more weight or doing more volume than the previous session, you'll be leaving a lot of gains on the table.
khazhoux 4y ago
> lifting is the most trivially simple activity there is Lucky you. For me, I always hit plateaus after a couple of months, and then in the past have given up several times after no progress over many months. This time, starting 13 months ago, I'm determined to stick with it, but still it's sloooooow, despite hours at the gym every other day (no exceptions!) putting in the work. So I'm definitely interested in seeing if there's some other approach that might be better -- more reps, higher weights, more/less variety, less rest period, more frequency, ....? Maybe the answer is I just need to be at the gym lifting hard 3 hours a day, 7 days a week.
- dangom 4y ago
  You may not see any progress, but that doesn't mean there isn't any. You are perfecting the moves you are making, and strengthening your bones, ligaments and tendons, which just don't develop nearly as fast as muscles. Staying at a plateau for a while is sometimes great to avoid injury.
- marknutter 4y ago
  There's a lot of different strategies you can employ when you hit a plateau. Try de-loading (e.g. 10% less weight) and working back up to the weight you plateaued at. Try adding drop sets after your main sets. Try implementing a periodization program. It could be related to your diet; perhaps you're not eating enough. It could be related to your sleep; perhaps you're not sleeping enough. It could be a result of supporting muscles that are lagging behind the main muscle utilized for a given lift, so do some research into supplemental exercises that could shore up those supporting muscles. Good luck!
marknutter 4y ago
I would argue the complexity is in finding the simplicity. It's very easy to get overwhelmed with all the contradictory advice and information out there and become paralyzed by the fear that you may be dumping months or even years of effort into a sub-optimal plan. You're not wrong about the answer actually being very simple, but it's important not to trivialize the difficulty in arriving at that conclusion for a lot of people (myself included).

ezconnect 4y ago

Their BS is the value add you get for paying them more money.

leidenfrost 4y ago

For those who want to look athletic enough, work a full time job and still have free time, sure. Actual competitive bodybuilding is far more complicated.

iamacyborg 4y ago
> Actual competitive bodybuilding is far more complicated. Sure, but that's a general truism. People focus too much on the 1% micro-optimisations instead of nailing the 99% that produces the largest rewards. I like how Steve Magness puts it[^1] > Good, solid consistent work stacked month after month, year after year is what leads to better performance. [^1]: https://twitter.com/stevemagness/status/1493946400442392589?lang=en-GB https://twitter.com/stevemagness/status/1493946400442392589?...
- short_sells_poo 4y ago
  This 100%, but I think it is also just the proliferation of information today. 99% of the gain is about a very simple set of exercises. I maintain that most people would get a superb musculature with just cycling/running, squats, deadlifts and bench presses (ignoring pre-existing injuries). 4 exercises where the most complex machinery is a bike, and even that can be replaced with running. Doing it consistently is the key. But then two problems happen: 1. People try to find shortcuts to make things easier. This is basic human nature. 2. While looking for ways of making it easier, a huge pile of salesmen insert themselves into people's attention, peddling the latest program, diet, fad, complex equipment (hello Peloton), etc. At that point, anyone who doesn't have >10 years of experience with their own body will simply be lost and unable to discern true good advice from drivel. As pointed out before, there's no money to be made, no "value to be added" to 4 dead simple exercises with a one off expenditure. There's no subscription to be sold, nothing can be turned into a service if the equipment lasts several lifetimes. The weights you buy yourself can be passed down to your kids, and they will likely be able to pass it down to their kids. A hunk of chromed steel can last a very long time, the only thing you have to buy is maybe running shoes or gears for your bike.
  - iamacyborg 4y ago
    The other bit you’re potentially missing is folks just want to emulate the “big” workouts that folks show off on social media. Which conveniently ignores the bread and butter boring stuff that’s actually critical to building effective fitness/whatever.
  - scruple 4y ago
    > most people would get a superb musculature with just cycling/running, squats, deadlifts and bench presses (ignoring pre-existing injuries). FWIW, you just described the essence of the Tactical Barbell system here. I've been using it to great effect over the last ~4 years. I will probably never touch a different strength and conditioning program as long as I live.
    - red-iron-pine 4y ago
      And most of Strong-Lifts 5x5. They add in a couple other movements but basically the same idea.
      - scruple 4y ago
        Yeah, but at some point an LP stops being a productive use of time. I prefer wave/block and undulating periodization programs because I never feel like I'm anywhere in the vicinity of failure and I'm always fresh for hard conditioning the day after a strength or hypertrophy session.

btrautsc 4y ago

This is one of my all-time favorite HN quotes: "Pick the weights up, put them down, eat food. It just not that complicated." Sincerely brought a smile to my face.

atlantic 4y ago

No offence, but as someone who worked in construction, shovelling is actually not simple at all. And working with a pick is even more complex. There are all kinds of optimizations you can introduce to avoid back injury and to maintain a steady rhythm over an eight-hour workday.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
moonchrome 4y ago
Just like lifting - but past a certain fairly easy to reach point it's just about repetition and micro optimization.

mateo- 4y ago

Darn, I can't find it. There's a guy who claims his only form of workout is just moving a massive pile of dirt back and forth in his yard. Significant because he's a pro athlete of some sort but I forget what he does -- NFL, UFC, strongman... One day I'll stumble upon it again and come back here and share. Just thought it was funny to compare it to shoveling dirt when that's actually what an elite athlete does somewhere out in the world lol

JeremyNT 4y ago

The problem here is that there really are many little optimizations that could be applied to "pick up, put down" and some do work. Injury avoidance and recovery in particular are easy to overlook. Of course the magnitude of the effect from most optimizations is small, so it's pretty easy for con artists to claim some secret or new breakthrough. At the very highest levels people want every edge they can get, but it's silly for most of us who aren't devoted to competition to go down these rabbit holes. Pick up / put down / don't get hurt goes quite a long way.

12345hn6789 4y ago

I mean sure you can say this about the majority of things. Programming is just typing away and compiling your program. It's not that complicated. If you want to be proficient at BB / power lifting / <weight-lifting activity>, doing more research and optimizing is important

9dev 4y ago
But most people don’t want to be proficient. They want to stay mostly healthy and get laid
- 12345hn6789 4y ago
  Getting healthy and looking good is the base line. If you workout for 6 months and don't see immediate changes you probably did something wrong. If you workout for 12 months and aren't looking better youre not proficient

voytec 4y ago

> The standard bullshit line in the fitness industry has always been "everyone else is wrong". Practically what every single trainer ever in the world has said. I find YouTube trainers' flame wars quite enjoyable. They tend to get triggered by comments or other trainers' videos and publish angry (to me - funny) videos in response. Recent clip from Athlean-X (something about "worst fitness youtuber") is a good example. So much energy wasted on nagging. When I want to listen to someone who appears to know their shit, I put dr. Mike from Renaissance Periodization[1] on. [1] https://www.youtube.com/c/RenaissancePeriodization https://www.youtube.com/c/RenaissancePeriodization

AlwaysRock 4y ago

Yup. Everything else is either bull shit or an attempt to optimize. Unless you are a body builder or a pro athlete you really should focus on consistency more than optimization. Getting 1% better results for the average person is going to be nullified by the beers they drink on the weekend/the multiple days they skip because they dont feel like working out/any number of other normal life actives that are not optimal. Find a way to exercise that you enjoy it and do it often. After that don't think about it too much. Recently I've been riding an exercise bike after work while playing a video game on my computer with an xbox controller. Every 5 minutes I hop off the bike and do some weight training then get back on the bike. I ride for an hour. Doing this most weekdays has lead to far better results than when I used to go to the gym because I actually do it everyday/most days and I don't rdread it.

danenania 4y ago
Another tip in this vein that I've found helpful when it comes to strength training, especially on days you feel tired or unmotivated, is to not count the reps. Just do as many as you can with good form and then stop. Trying to always hit some number creates unnecessary stress and frustration when you can't get there, and causes injury when form breaks down and/or you push too far. The point is to fatigue the muscle, not do some particular number of reps. If you're feeling good and want to test yourself or go for a PR, that's great, but if it makes you feel bad or you start dreading workouts, stop counting!
- AlwaysRock 4y ago
  Great advice. Again, unless you are a body builder the reps really dont even matter.
- marknutter 4y ago
  While this is better than not working out at all, the only way you're going to get your muscles to grow is by progressively overloading consistently over time, and if you have too many sessions where you aren't pushing more weight or doing more volume than the previous session, you'll be leaving a lot of gains on the table.

khazhoux 4y ago

> lifting is the most trivially simple activity there is Lucky you. For me, I always hit plateaus after a couple of months, and then in the past have given up several times after no progress over many months. This time, starting 13 months ago, I'm determined to stick with it, but still it's sloooooow, despite hours at the gym every other day (no exceptions!) putting in the work. So I'm definitely interested in seeing if there's some other approach that might be better -- more reps, higher weights, more/less variety, less rest period, more frequency, ....? Maybe the answer is I just need to be at the gym lifting hard 3 hours a day, 7 days a week.

dangom 4y ago
You may not see any progress, but that doesn't mean there isn't any. You are perfecting the moves you are making, and strengthening your bones, ligaments and tendons, which just don't develop nearly as fast as muscles. Staying at a plateau for a while is sometimes great to avoid injury.
marknutter 4y ago
There's a lot of different strategies you can employ when you hit a plateau. Try de-loading (e.g. 10% less weight) and working back up to the weight you plateaued at. Try adding drop sets after your main sets. Try implementing a periodization program. It could be related to your diet; perhaps you're not eating enough. It could be related to your sleep; perhaps you're not sleeping enough. It could be a result of supporting muscles that are lagging behind the main muscle utilized for a given lift, so do some research into supplemental exercises that could shore up those supporting muscles. Good luck!

marknutter 4y ago

I would argue the complexity is in finding the simplicity. It's very easy to get overwhelmed with all the contradictory advice and information out there and become paralyzed by the fear that you may be dumping months or even years of effort into a sub-optimal plan. You're not wrong about the answer actually being very simple, but it's important not to trivialize the difficulty in arriving at that conclusion for a lot of people (myself included).