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I forgot Xcode, it should be included, plus all the Dictionary files, considering how much storage is on even the base configurations being sold.

by 3pac 4y ago

willio58 4y ago
What's the issue with keeping these all free but not installed by default? I haven't used any of those apps in years.
- 3pac 4y ago
  I do not consider logging into iCloud to be part of "finishing setting up" my computer. In fact, I would like more out-of-the-box visibility into the phoning-home that Mac OS X performs. With Xcode specifically, I think a computer should be immediately programmable, like a BASIC interpreter used to be included. Especially to encourage young people.
  - musicale 4y ago
    Most computing devices include a web browser with a JavaScript interpreter. However, it isn't easy for beginners to discover or to learn to use. But... regardless of any improvements to make programming more discoverable and accessible, I don't foresee a resurgence of interest in end-user programming, because: 1) Apps have made end-user programming obsolete (much like web 2.0 eliminating end-user HTML and JavaScript.) 2) Some computer scientists (Matt Welsh, Bertrand Meyer, et al.) predict that programming will go the way of assembly language as AI systems become capable of writing complex programs. If (2) comes true, we may see a situation where end users provide prompts to AI systems which generate complete custom programs on demand.
    - hulitu 4y ago
      >Most computing devices include a web browser with a JavaScript interpreter. A web browser is not a computer. They are working hard to make it one, but they are just not there yet. /s
      - musicale 4y ago
        I was responding to "a BASIC interpreter used to be included", pointing out that although BASIC may no longer be shipped with every PC, JavaScript usually is. Your point is well taken though - JavaScript, while arguably more powerful than BASIC in many ways, usually doesn't allow the same low-level hardware access that Microsoft (and other) BASIC implementations once did. Nonetheless it's often possible to write pretty good, full-screen games in JavaScript with sound, 2D and 3D graphics, network capability, and even game controller support. And while BASIC could call out to assembly language, JavaScript can call out to WASM.
  - dagmx 4y ago
    Fwiw, you don’t need iCloud to get Xcode , it’s installable from the website. Better yet, you don’t even need to do that to get the command line tools. Just do xcode-select —install

I forgot Xcode, it should be included, plus all the Dictionary files, considering how much storage is on even the base configurations being sold.

by 3pac 4y ago

I forgot Xcode, it should be included, plus all the Dictionary files, considering how much storage is on even the base configurations being sold.

willio58 4y ago

What's the issue with keeping these all free but not installed by default? I haven't used any of those apps in years.

3pac 4y ago
I do not consider logging into iCloud to be part of "finishing setting up" my computer. In fact, I would like more out-of-the-box visibility into the phoning-home that Mac OS X performs. With Xcode specifically, I think a computer should be immediately programmable, like a BASIC interpreter used to be included. Especially to encourage young people.
- musicale 4y ago
  Most computing devices include a web browser with a JavaScript interpreter. However, it isn't easy for beginners to discover or to learn to use. But... regardless of any improvements to make programming more discoverable and accessible, I don't foresee a resurgence of interest in end-user programming, because: 1) Apps have made end-user programming obsolete (much like web 2.0 eliminating end-user HTML and JavaScript.) 2) Some computer scientists (Matt Welsh, Bertrand Meyer, et al.) predict that programming will go the way of assembly language as AI systems become capable of writing complex programs. If (2) comes true, we may see a situation where end users provide prompts to AI systems which generate complete custom programs on demand.
  - hulitu 4y ago
    >Most computing devices include a web browser with a JavaScript interpreter. A web browser is not a computer. They are working hard to make it one, but they are just not there yet. /s
    - musicale 4y ago
      I was responding to "a BASIC interpreter used to be included", pointing out that although BASIC may no longer be shipped with every PC, JavaScript usually is. Your point is well taken though - JavaScript, while arguably more powerful than BASIC in many ways, usually doesn't allow the same low-level hardware access that Microsoft (and other) BASIC implementations once did. Nonetheless it's often possible to write pretty good, full-screen games in JavaScript with sound, 2D and 3D graphics, network capability, and even game controller support. And while BASIC could call out to assembly language, JavaScript can call out to WASM.
- dagmx 4y ago
  Fwiw, you don’t need iCloud to get Xcode , it’s installable from the website. Better yet, you don’t even need to do that to get the command line tools. Just do xcode-select —install