7 ms·

It never mattered if you live in a country with a stable currency and access to modern financial services. If that is you, you are in a very small minority of t

It never mattered if you live in a country with a stable currency and access to modern financial services. If that is you, you are in a very small minority of the world population. For the rest of the world, there seems to be some value... https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/2021-global-crypto-adoption-index/ https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/2021-global-crypto-adop...

oblio 4y ago
People keep harping about that. Let's say I'm some sort of Ion Trașcă from Moldova. My country's in shambles, I need to buy and pay for stuff using crypto. How can I do that? Are there simple to use apps to set things up from the start and then use crypto? UI/fully visual, I don't want to touch ANY scary command line. How do I or who manages my keys?
- jamiegreen 4y ago
  I'm not sure if you are being intentionally condescending but you are coming across that way. I am going to assume good intention here. I am not that familiar with the 'end use ' of paying for stuff directly, maybe you can't in Moldova. Even if you can't pay for things directly, there are plenty of relevant uses. Simply using USDC can be a great store of value for people if their currency is collapsing. See lebanon, turkey, egypt, sri lanka etc. Then if things get really bad, having some crypto could be very useful again if/when you have to flee the country. There are so many stories of Russians and Ukranians that left and were not able to take any of their currency. Here is just one example: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/23/ukrainian-flees-to-poland-with-2000-in-bitcoin-on-usb-drive.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/23/ukrainian-flees-to-poland-wi... Pointing out these real use cases is not 'harping on', in some cases this tech has saved people from terrible situations.
  - oblio 4y ago
    Every bad thing has positive aspects just as every good thing also has negative ones. For now I'm against cryptocurrencies because every plus I've seen is outweighed by the con (pun intended). And this is actually the second time in a cryptocurrency topic that I ask this and nobody answers. Let's say I'm in Extremistan or Extremistia. How do I use cryptocurrency? Is it just a store of value? Can I use it for payments? I want a guide, I'm new to this. How do I use it?
    - ls15 4y ago
      You'd need to find people/businesses who are willing to accept crypto in exchange for goods or services, and if that is not an option, you'd need to exchange crypto for local (or another accepted) currency. If your government tries to stop you from doing that, it is of course much harder, but not impossible, since decentralized exchanges such as Bisq would be an option, as well as LocalMonero or regular old black markets, assuming that you have coins that someone is willing to pay for.
- xwolfi 4y ago
  Use euros
brianmcc 4y ago
>> you are in a very small minority of the world population Really? So EU, UK, USA, China, Australia, with stable currencies, are a small minority..? Sorry but countries with wild instability are the minority and frankly gold would seem to be a better store of value if that's anyone's concern. Crypto remains speculation i.e. a gamble not a store of value.
- ls15 4y ago
  > EU In 2013 the government of Cyprus decided to seize money directly from people's bank accounts. I would not call that stable. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/03/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-cyprus-bank-disaster/274096/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/03/everyth... > China In 2022, when some Chinese banks decided to freeze depositors accounts for shady reasons and debitors planned to protest the issue, authorities used Covid codes to block them from accessing the banks. That also does not seem stable to me. https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-bank-protest-stopped-by-health-codes-turning-red-depositors-say-2022-06-14/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-bank-protest-stopp...
  - oblio 4y ago
    If a government decides you'll get a haircut, you'll get one, even if they have to take out the sheep shears to do it.
    - ls15 4y ago
      The Cypriots who preferred to store their cash in their pillow did not get the haircut though.
      - oblio 4y ago
        That opens you up to the "gun and bag" risk, though.
        ls15 4y ago
phphphphp 4y ago
The meme that cryptocurrency is good for people in countries without modern banking is long-dead at this point. First, and most importantly, many supposed not-modern countries actually have more robust banking than America: mobile money is more popular and has far greater penetration in large parts of Africa than it does America, for example. Secondly, for every cryptocurrency project that has provided value to places without modern banking, there’s a cryptocurrency project that has more effectively exploited people. The fundamental problem with your position is that cryptocurrency does not offer a stable store of value and so while there may be short term examples where people have found value by using a non-government currency, these examples are often short lived. Just look at platforms like the YC-backed Stablegains, which are a great alternative to government-backed currencies… until they blow up and financially-insecure people are thrown into a dire situation.
mrtksn 4y ago
This is a complete BS, currently I'm in a country with very unstable currency that lost so much value during the last 2 crypto booms(2017, 2021) and I know what actually happened on the ground. Crypto adoption is indeed high, much more than the western world but people are not in it to protect themselves from a volatile exchange rates but because they are desperate for a side hustle to make the ends meet. Those who are interested in preserving value simply buy USD, EUR or gold. The "unbanked" concept is also complete BS, in those 3.rd world countries the banking systems and the fintech infrastructure is much more advanced than the ones in the west. There are indeed millions of "unbanked" people but they are unbanked due to political reasons and as a result they use alternatives payment processors which are not banks(or just use cash). When Europe was introduced to easy to use mobile banking with things like Monzo or Revolut and USA was adopting contactless payments or Chip&Pin these were already the norm. Before the iPhone&Android proliferation, people were able to do much of this stuff through the ATMs and payments systems integrated with the SIM cards. People from 3rd world visiting EU or the USA are often shocked when see how primitive retail banking and payment systems are. I guess the rhetoric of "banking the unbanked in the poor countries" comes from the idea that "if we the rich have so many troubles with payments, surely it must be much worse in the poor countries". I assure you, this is not the case, the west is the one with primitive fintech. The value of crypto came from the ability to speculate. Everyone younger than 30 was in it and some people made good money. These days everyone is in the stock market, anyone can buy and sell stocks from their banking app and all taxes and fees are handled so its easy as buying and selling candies.
- thepangolino 4y ago
  Providing banking services to people who are unbanked for political reasons is one of the main advantages of crypto imho. This is something you can get hit by in so called democratic countries as Canada demonstrated last year. https://www.businessinsider.com/trudeau-canada-freeze-bank-accounts-freedom-convoy-truckers-2022-2?op=1&r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/trudeau-canada-freeze-bank-a...
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    This is not true at all. If the government doesn't want you to do something with your money its only a matter of time to catch up. So you got untouchable by the banks because you participated in a political uprising that failed? You think that crypto will save you? Think again because it's only matter of time before the government makes it illegal to accept payments from that alternative payment method or from you directly. The only thing that works is hard cash. The electronic stuff don't work because they by design work by bookkeeping(remember the ledger on the blockchain) and when there is a bookkeeping there are ways to trace and prevent. Oh you will use a coin tumbler? Money that went through it automatically becomes unusable. You will use somethingprivacy oriented like Monero? If the origin is untraceable its illegal. Laundering money is getting harder every day. It doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with the motives, if you live in a society that agreed on how the society should work and they decided that certain activities are legal and certain taxes must be paid you will squeezed out. The wealthy are still finding ways but the wealthy are not unbanked, they set up shell corporations, move cash with private jets etc. Crypto was another opportunity but once it become large enough it got noticed.
tsimionescu 4y ago
India, China, the countries of the EU, the USA, Japan, Indonesia - these countries all have a stable currency and access to modern financial services, and together make up a majority of the world's population, or close to it - and there are many others fitting this bill. This "small minority" idea is ludicrous.
comte7092 4y ago
Having some friends in such countries (Argentina), my anecdotal reports are that they end up holding dollars rather than crypto.

oblio 4y ago

People keep harping about that. Let's say I'm some sort of Ion Trașcă from Moldova. My country's in shambles, I need to buy and pay for stuff using crypto. How can I do that? Are there simple to use apps to set things up from the start and then use crypto? UI/fully visual, I don't want to touch ANY scary command line. How do I or who manages my keys?

jamiegreen 4y ago
I'm not sure if you are being intentionally condescending but you are coming across that way. I am going to assume good intention here. I am not that familiar with the 'end use ' of paying for stuff directly, maybe you can't in Moldova. Even if you can't pay for things directly, there are plenty of relevant uses. Simply using USDC can be a great store of value for people if their currency is collapsing. See lebanon, turkey, egypt, sri lanka etc. Then if things get really bad, having some crypto could be very useful again if/when you have to flee the country. There are so many stories of Russians and Ukranians that left and were not able to take any of their currency. Here is just one example: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/23/ukrainian-flees-to-poland-with-2000-in-bitcoin-on-usb-drive.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/23/ukrainian-flees-to-poland-wi... Pointing out these real use cases is not 'harping on', in some cases this tech has saved people from terrible situations.
- oblio 4y ago
  Every bad thing has positive aspects just as every good thing also has negative ones. For now I'm against cryptocurrencies because every plus I've seen is outweighed by the con (pun intended). And this is actually the second time in a cryptocurrency topic that I ask this and nobody answers. Let's say I'm in Extremistan or Extremistia. How do I use cryptocurrency? Is it just a store of value? Can I use it for payments? I want a guide, I'm new to this. How do I use it?
  - ls15 4y ago
    You'd need to find people/businesses who are willing to accept crypto in exchange for goods or services, and if that is not an option, you'd need to exchange crypto for local (or another accepted) currency. If your government tries to stop you from doing that, it is of course much harder, but not impossible, since decentralized exchanges such as Bisq would be an option, as well as LocalMonero or regular old black markets, assuming that you have coins that someone is willing to pay for.
xwolfi 4y ago
Use euros

brianmcc 4y ago

>> you are in a very small minority of the world population Really? So EU, UK, USA, China, Australia, with stable currencies, are a small minority..? Sorry but countries with wild instability are the minority and frankly gold would seem to be a better store of value if that's anyone's concern. Crypto remains speculation i.e. a gamble not a store of value.

ls15 4y ago
> EU In 2013 the government of Cyprus decided to seize money directly from people's bank accounts. I would not call that stable. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/03/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-cyprus-bank-disaster/274096/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/03/everyth... > China In 2022, when some Chinese banks decided to freeze depositors accounts for shady reasons and debitors planned to protest the issue, authorities used Covid codes to block them from accessing the banks. That also does not seem stable to me. https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-bank-protest-stopped-by-health-codes-turning-red-depositors-say-2022-06-14/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-bank-protest-stopp...
- oblio 4y ago
  If a government decides you'll get a haircut, you'll get one, even if they have to take out the sheep shears to do it.
  - ls15 4y ago
    The Cypriots who preferred to store their cash in their pillow did not get the haircut though.
    - oblio 4y ago
      That opens you up to the "gun and bag" risk, though.
      - ls15 4y ago

phphphphp 4y ago

The meme that cryptocurrency is good for people in countries without modern banking is long-dead at this point. First, and most importantly, many supposed not-modern countries actually have more robust banking than America: mobile money is more popular and has far greater penetration in large parts of Africa than it does America, for example. Secondly, for every cryptocurrency project that has provided value to places without modern banking, there’s a cryptocurrency project that has more effectively exploited people. The fundamental problem with your position is that cryptocurrency does not offer a stable store of value and so while there may be short term examples where people have found value by using a non-government currency, these examples are often short lived. Just look at platforms like the YC-backed Stablegains, which are a great alternative to government-backed currencies… until they blow up and financially-insecure people are thrown into a dire situation.

mrtksn 4y ago

This is a complete BS, currently I'm in a country with very unstable currency that lost so much value during the last 2 crypto booms(2017, 2021) and I know what actually happened on the ground. Crypto adoption is indeed high, much more than the western world but people are not in it to protect themselves from a volatile exchange rates but because they are desperate for a side hustle to make the ends meet. Those who are interested in preserving value simply buy USD, EUR or gold. The "unbanked" concept is also complete BS, in those 3.rd world countries the banking systems and the fintech infrastructure is much more advanced than the ones in the west. There are indeed millions of "unbanked" people but they are unbanked due to political reasons and as a result they use alternatives payment processors which are not banks(or just use cash). When Europe was introduced to easy to use mobile banking with things like Monzo or Revolut and USA was adopting contactless payments or Chip&Pin these were already the norm. Before the iPhone&Android proliferation, people were able to do much of this stuff through the ATMs and payments systems integrated with the SIM cards. People from 3rd world visiting EU or the USA are often shocked when see how primitive retail banking and payment systems are. I guess the rhetoric of "banking the unbanked in the poor countries" comes from the idea that "if we the rich have so many troubles with payments, surely it must be much worse in the poor countries". I assure you, this is not the case, the west is the one with primitive fintech. The value of crypto came from the ability to speculate. Everyone younger than 30 was in it and some people made good money. These days everyone is in the stock market, anyone can buy and sell stocks from their banking app and all taxes and fees are handled so its easy as buying and selling candies.

thepangolino 4y ago
Providing banking services to people who are unbanked for political reasons is one of the main advantages of crypto imho. This is something you can get hit by in so called democratic countries as Canada demonstrated last year. https://www.businessinsider.com/trudeau-canada-freeze-bank-accounts-freedom-convoy-truckers-2022-2?op=1&r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/trudeau-canada-freeze-bank-a...
- mrtksn 4y ago
  This is not true at all. If the government doesn't want you to do something with your money its only a matter of time to catch up. So you got untouchable by the banks because you participated in a political uprising that failed? You think that crypto will save you? Think again because it's only matter of time before the government makes it illegal to accept payments from that alternative payment method or from you directly. The only thing that works is hard cash. The electronic stuff don't work because they by design work by bookkeeping(remember the ledger on the blockchain) and when there is a bookkeeping there are ways to trace and prevent. Oh you will use a coin tumbler? Money that went through it automatically becomes unusable. You will use somethingprivacy oriented like Monero? If the origin is untraceable its illegal. Laundering money is getting harder every day. It doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with the motives, if you live in a society that agreed on how the society should work and they decided that certain activities are legal and certain taxes must be paid you will squeezed out. The wealthy are still finding ways but the wealthy are not unbanked, they set up shell corporations, move cash with private jets etc. Crypto was another opportunity but once it become large enough it got noticed.

tsimionescu 4y ago

India, China, the countries of the EU, the USA, Japan, Indonesia - these countries all have a stable currency and access to modern financial services, and together make up a majority of the world's population, or close to it - and there are many others fitting this bill. This "small minority" idea is ludicrous.

comte7092 4y ago

Having some friends in such countries (Argentina), my anecdotal reports are that they end up holding dollars rather than crypto.