7 ms·

I'm always reminded of Gabe Newell's quote on piracy[1]: >Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem And by in large I still agree wi

I'm always reminded of Gabe Newell's quote on piracy[1]: >Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem And by in large I still agree with it. For me I've only ever turned to piracy when the legitimate service has become a complete mess of red tape and user frustration. [1] https://www.escapistmagazine.com/valves-gabe-newell-says-piracy-is-a-service-problem/ https://www.escapistmagazine.com/valves-gabe-newell-says-pir...

gleenn 4y ago
Honest question, what's the difference between a pricing and service problem?
- vincentkriek 4y ago
  Pricing means you pirate media because you dont want to pay for it. Service problems means you pirate stuff because it's too inconvenient to do it legally, and easier to pirate stuff.
- tobinfekkes 4y ago
  Basically, that people aren't nudged to pirate content because they don't want to pay or the price is too high, but rather because the quality of service for trying to be legitimate is so poor.
- amadvance 4y ago
  People pirates because it's the simplest way to obtain what they want, and not because it's the cheapest.
- f1refly 4y ago
  A service problem is when the media mafia refuses to sell me files that I can keep. I'd like to open some website and pay 15 bucks for a movie (the same as I'd buy for a recent bluray in a store) where I'm then allowed to just download a .mkv that I can throw on my nas. Major streaming sites refuse to serve me content with resolution higher that 480p (I think?) because my computer obeys me and not them. Sure looks great on the big screen in my living room.
  - Karsteski 4y ago
    I think it's 720p but yea, it's why I will never pay for Netflix and I often pirate stuff that's available on there despite having access to my mother's account. I've not pirated games since I was a teenager, because Steam is such a good service, and I'm happy to pay for games. Meanwhile I constantly bring up how much better my media consumption experience is because I pirate high quality movies and shows instead of the drivel that online media providers offer
    - kelnos 4y ago
      > I've not pirated games since I was a teenager, because Steam is such a good service, and I'm happy to pay for games. I'm happy to pay for games too, but I've stopped buying from Steam unless they're not available elsewhere. GOG has been my go-to, as they only sell games without DRM. If Valve someday goes belly-up, or just decides to stop running their license servers, all those games we've bought on Steam are just gone, absent (illegal, in the US, anyway) third-party tools to strip the DRM. I believe some versions of Stream DRM can be removed, but not all. I just don't see the need to reward a company that treats me like a criminal when I can get the same games from a company that respects me and my purchase. (Bonus: Steam-the-software even allows you to add non-Steam games to the app, which makes it easy to run non-native games I've bought from GOG under Proton, for example.)
      - f1refly 4y ago
        The key point for me with valve is their ongoing efforts to make software they license to me easier for me to use. This is completely opposed to the rest of the media industry, who are working exclusively to make my experience worse. Thanks to valves efforts I can now easily run many games that would've been windows only a few years ago.
        zirgs 4y ago
        Valve also currently sells the best handheld console on the market.
  - 4y ago
- manholio 4y ago
  For many people the "free" price of piracy still will not justify the hassle of finding torrent sites, going through fake releases and warez. They would just pay some number of dollars if that process is frictionless and gets them what they want. But when paying for it and maintaining access for what you paid becomes more complex than pirating, then you have a service problem that can't be solved by pricing.
- nlnn 4y ago
  A pricing problem would be where media/subscription costs are higher than people are willing/able to pay. A service problem would be where the service or app is too complex or time consuming to use, or has a lot of friction during use (as was the case in the original post).
- scambier 4y ago
  "Piracy is a service problem" means that most people pirate because they don't have access (or difficult access) to the product/service they want. They would gladly pay for it, but they can't, or can't be hassled to. I don't know if it's been backed up by real data, but services like Steam and Spotify tend to confirm this intuition.
  - snowwrestler 4y ago
    Spotify confirms that piracy was in fact a pricing problem. With a Spotify subscription, you get way more music for a far lower price than under the previous “buy it to hear it” model a la iTunes or CDs. And artists make way less money now from recorded music than they used to. Studios only agreed to the Spotify pricing model because the alternative was rampant file-based piracy. They figured that getting something is better than nothing.
    - jl6 4y ago
      Another thing to consider is that there is so much more music today than 20 years ago in the Napster era. There has been an explosion in content creation, as the means of production have become ever-more accessible, and it all accumulates over time, so the older stuff never goes away. The supply of music only ever increases, and naturally when the supply of something increases so dramatically, we would expect the price to go down. What about demand? We are certainly listening to more music than ever before, and the population is growing, but not at the 10x or 100x rate that has happened to the supply of music. There’s an upper limit of 24 hours per day listening time per person. There is already more music than it is possible to listen to in a lifetime. Soon there will be more good music than it is possible to listen to in a lifetime.
      - jemmyw 4y ago
        I wonder if we're moving back to an older way of consuming music where many or most people have musical ability and play for themselves and family. Perhaps not quite to that degree but you're more likely to know several people who create music and share it without being or expecting to be a musician by trade. I personally listen to less music and play more. Rather than looking for the new thing I'll examine songs in quite a lot of detail to understand them.
- mindcrime 4y ago
  Here's an example: I believe in supporting those who create media, and don't mind at all paying for streaming services that provide quality content for a fair price. As such, I happily subscribe to Amazon Prime (with several "add on" channels), Netflix, Hulu, Disney+, and HBO Max. Then one day I decided, "hell, I think Peacock TV has some stuff I might want to watch." So I signed up for a paid account, like any other good law-abiding citizen might. A couple of days later I finally got around to logging in and trying to watch something, only to be met by some bizarre error message. Which led me to find out that Peacock doesn't support playback on Linux. Which sent me down a rabbit-hole of trying to find some kind of way to make it work nonetheless. After a couple of days of futzing around with everything I could think of short of running Windows in a VM (and including going as far as running Android in a VM) I gave up and cancelled my paid account. What makes it all the more galling is how their support lines lie and say "We're always working to add support for more platforms" when the reality is, there have (from online accounts I've read) at times in the past been workarounds that let Peacock work on Linux... and they have systematically identified and blocked all of them. It would be one thing if any other major streaming service had a similar policy, or if Peacock had a position of "we don't officially support Linux, so it might work or it might not". But this is different. It's an active, hostile, intentional effort to block Linux users. Anyway, that's what I'd call a "service problem". As far as I can tell, there is no amount of money I can pay Peacock that will let me use their service. So not a "pricing problem". In conclusion, I will now return to using Bittorrent or other mechanisms to pirate any Peacock content I find interesting. Fuck 'em, I tried to pay the fuckers and they didn't want to play ball.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    But that's the case with the others, too. I'm not familiar with HBO, Disney and Hulu, but Prime and Netflix don't allow you to watch high-def content on Linux. Hell, even on Windows with their app, Prime won't let you watch more that HD. For UHD, you need their stick or some other device. [0] Netflix supports UHD on computers, but only on some browsers, of which Chrome is not one [1]. But, to your point about Peacock, at least they do work on Linux, as in you'll get some sort of image. [0] https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=GUVGB3QMQRYRERYW https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=... [1] https://help.netflix.com/en/node/23742 https://help.netflix.com/en/node/23742
- gorbachev 4y ago
  For me pirating "services" (torrent trackers, Usenet, etc.) simply offer better choices. For mainstream content it's available around the globe, in all kinds of different formats / bitrates, with community sourced subtitles, usable on any device (hw performance limitations notwithstanding) and in my possession forever after downloading should I choose to keep the content. Another service improvement on piracy is better availability of more obscure content. Live shows, foreign movies/music or anything out of the mainstream is usually accessible better when you're pirating content. The only content class traditional media companies and online streaming offers a better service for is live broadcasting, and even then geographical restrictions f*ck you over depending on the licensing agreements.
- nighthawk454 4y ago
  Simple - a service problem can't be fixed with more money e.g. a lot of times no assortment of streaming subscriptions will get you access to certain shows/films/games. sometimes they may be out of print on disc as well. there may be no actual legal way to access that content. but piratebay is right there...
vincentkriek 4y ago
I think this is true for the majority of people, and I think music streaming is the example of this. I know almost no people who still pirate music, everyone has spotify. The competition between services (tidal, deezer) seems to be fought over music quality and some minor exclusives but the majority of the music collection is shared over services.
- magic_hamster 4y ago
  I don't have Spotify. And I never will. I don't like depending on subscription services. There are satisfactory alternatives (I find pre-compiled YouTube sets to work well) but having a local copy has always been a priority for me, and I don't see it changing any time soon.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- black_puppydog 4y ago
  > some minor exclusives but the majority of the music collection is shared over services Actually I had that impression some 7-8 years ago, but since then the experience on Spotify (France) continually deteriorated, with sometimes entire playlists (not even from a single artist, but e.g. one of my fav chiptune compilations) becoming entirely unplayable (greyed out) over night. I have the impression that this situation is getting more and more similar to the madness in video streaming. Every freaking time I want to watch a specific movie (vs just taking whatever they propose right now) I end up with zero hits on the streaming platforms in the house. (But in my family's defense, they only have amazon prime, netflix, and disney+... /s) I don't participate in either of these shit-shows any longer. If this mode of operation of "one walled garden against the other" centering around exclusive content at the front of the distribution, with so much disregard for the long tail, is what streaming breeds, then streaming is no improvement over pirating. (and that doesn't even go into the economics of the system, i.e. who really makes money in it)
donmcronald 4y ago
> Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem. It’s both. I can go on Steam and find a fun looking game that can range from $0 to $100. There’s no minimum spend. I spend hundreds of dollars a year on “cheap” games and nothing on movies or music.
josteink 4y ago
> And by in large I still agree with it. For me I've only ever turned to piracy when the legitimate service has become a complete mess of red tape and user frustration. I think service quality is an issue too, at least for me. Recently I wanted to rewatch Twin Peaks on TV. I found out I can stream it on Sky Showtime, which also has an AppleTV app. Sounds great! I sign up, pay the cash and start watching. And they are sending me a 1080p video stream with stereo audio. This show has 5.1 and 7.1 DTS-MA audio-mixes on Blu-ray, so official surround-mixes definitely exists. It would have perhaps cost Showtime 200kbps extra to offer me a 5.1 AC3 track? But instead they will nickel and dime me to save some measly amounts of bandwidth and only give me a 128kbps stereo-track. I’ll be honest and admit I went out and downloaded a “proper” release for this instead, and the subscription is now cancelled. Because the service quality was not on par with a pirated alternative.
sytelus 4y ago
This is very First world view sans min wage population. In developing countries, it is always a pricing problem and people don’t care about convenience. When you have only just barely enough money for food and rent, you are not thinking about great service vs zero price trade off.
zirgs 4y ago
Also these days with ransomware, crypto miners, botnets and other crap like that it's insane to run random *.exe files on your computer. Especially if you also doing stuff like online banking on it. It's simply not worth the risk. And games that I want will be on sale sooner or later anyway.
- fsflover 4y ago
  I have no problem running random executables on my Qubes OS (in a hardware-virtualized, disposable VM).
  - zirgs 4y ago
    Games usually have all sorts of issues when running in a VM.

gleenn 4y ago

Honest question, what's the difference between a pricing and service problem?

vincentkriek 4y ago
Pricing means you pirate media because you dont want to pay for it. Service problems means you pirate stuff because it's too inconvenient to do it legally, and easier to pirate stuff.
tobinfekkes 4y ago
Basically, that people aren't nudged to pirate content because they don't want to pay or the price is too high, but rather because the quality of service for trying to be legitimate is so poor.
amadvance 4y ago
People pirates because it's the simplest way to obtain what they want, and not because it's the cheapest.
f1refly 4y ago
A service problem is when the media mafia refuses to sell me files that I can keep. I'd like to open some website and pay 15 bucks for a movie (the same as I'd buy for a recent bluray in a store) where I'm then allowed to just download a .mkv that I can throw on my nas. Major streaming sites refuse to serve me content with resolution higher that 480p (I think?) because my computer obeys me and not them. Sure looks great on the big screen in my living room.
- Karsteski 4y ago
  I think it's 720p but yea, it's why I will never pay for Netflix and I often pirate stuff that's available on there despite having access to my mother's account. I've not pirated games since I was a teenager, because Steam is such a good service, and I'm happy to pay for games. Meanwhile I constantly bring up how much better my media consumption experience is because I pirate high quality movies and shows instead of the drivel that online media providers offer
  - kelnos 4y ago
    > I've not pirated games since I was a teenager, because Steam is such a good service, and I'm happy to pay for games. I'm happy to pay for games too, but I've stopped buying from Steam unless they're not available elsewhere. GOG has been my go-to, as they only sell games without DRM. If Valve someday goes belly-up, or just decides to stop running their license servers, all those games we've bought on Steam are just gone, absent (illegal, in the US, anyway) third-party tools to strip the DRM. I believe some versions of Stream DRM can be removed, but not all. I just don't see the need to reward a company that treats me like a criminal when I can get the same games from a company that respects me and my purchase. (Bonus: Steam-the-software even allows you to add non-Steam games to the app, which makes it easy to run non-native games I've bought from GOG under Proton, for example.)
    - f1refly 4y ago
      The key point for me with valve is their ongoing efforts to make software they license to me easier for me to use. This is completely opposed to the rest of the media industry, who are working exclusively to make my experience worse. Thanks to valves efforts I can now easily run many games that would've been windows only a few years ago.
      - zirgs 4y ago
        Valve also currently sells the best handheld console on the market.
- 4y ago
manholio 4y ago
For many people the "free" price of piracy still will not justify the hassle of finding torrent sites, going through fake releases and warez. They would just pay some number of dollars if that process is frictionless and gets them what they want. But when paying for it and maintaining access for what you paid becomes more complex than pirating, then you have a service problem that can't be solved by pricing.
nlnn 4y ago
A pricing problem would be where media/subscription costs are higher than people are willing/able to pay. A service problem would be where the service or app is too complex or time consuming to use, or has a lot of friction during use (as was the case in the original post).
scambier 4y ago
"Piracy is a service problem" means that most people pirate because they don't have access (or difficult access) to the product/service they want. They would gladly pay for it, but they can't, or can't be hassled to. I don't know if it's been backed up by real data, but services like Steam and Spotify tend to confirm this intuition.
- snowwrestler 4y ago
  Spotify confirms that piracy was in fact a pricing problem. With a Spotify subscription, you get way more music for a far lower price than under the previous “buy it to hear it” model a la iTunes or CDs. And artists make way less money now from recorded music than they used to. Studios only agreed to the Spotify pricing model because the alternative was rampant file-based piracy. They figured that getting something is better than nothing.
  - jl6 4y ago
    Another thing to consider is that there is so much more music today than 20 years ago in the Napster era. There has been an explosion in content creation, as the means of production have become ever-more accessible, and it all accumulates over time, so the older stuff never goes away. The supply of music only ever increases, and naturally when the supply of something increases so dramatically, we would expect the price to go down. What about demand? We are certainly listening to more music than ever before, and the population is growing, but not at the 10x or 100x rate that has happened to the supply of music. There’s an upper limit of 24 hours per day listening time per person. There is already more music than it is possible to listen to in a lifetime. Soon there will be more good music than it is possible to listen to in a lifetime.
    - jemmyw 4y ago
      I wonder if we're moving back to an older way of consuming music where many or most people have musical ability and play for themselves and family. Perhaps not quite to that degree but you're more likely to know several people who create music and share it without being or expecting to be a musician by trade. I personally listen to less music and play more. Rather than looking for the new thing I'll examine songs in quite a lot of detail to understand them.
mindcrime 4y ago
Here's an example: I believe in supporting those who create media, and don't mind at all paying for streaming services that provide quality content for a fair price. As such, I happily subscribe to Amazon Prime (with several "add on" channels), Netflix, Hulu, Disney+, and HBO Max. Then one day I decided, "hell, I think Peacock TV has some stuff I might want to watch." So I signed up for a paid account, like any other good law-abiding citizen might. A couple of days later I finally got around to logging in and trying to watch something, only to be met by some bizarre error message. Which led me to find out that Peacock doesn't support playback on Linux. Which sent me down a rabbit-hole of trying to find some kind of way to make it work nonetheless. After a couple of days of futzing around with everything I could think of short of running Windows in a VM (and including going as far as running Android in a VM) I gave up and cancelled my paid account. What makes it all the more galling is how their support lines lie and say "We're always working to add support for more platforms" when the reality is, there have (from online accounts I've read) at times in the past been workarounds that let Peacock work on Linux... and they have systematically identified and blocked all of them. It would be one thing if any other major streaming service had a similar policy, or if Peacock had a position of "we don't officially support Linux, so it might work or it might not". But this is different. It's an active, hostile, intentional effort to block Linux users. Anyway, that's what I'd call a "service problem". As far as I can tell, there is no amount of money I can pay Peacock that will let me use their service. So not a "pricing problem". In conclusion, I will now return to using Bittorrent or other mechanisms to pirate any Peacock content I find interesting. Fuck 'em, I tried to pay the fuckers and they didn't want to play ball.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  But that's the case with the others, too. I'm not familiar with HBO, Disney and Hulu, but Prime and Netflix don't allow you to watch high-def content on Linux. Hell, even on Windows with their app, Prime won't let you watch more that HD. For UHD, you need their stick or some other device. [0] Netflix supports UHD on computers, but only on some browsers, of which Chrome is not one [1]. But, to your point about Peacock, at least they do work on Linux, as in you'll get some sort of image. [0] https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=GUVGB3QMQRYRERYW https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=... [1] https://help.netflix.com/en/node/23742 https://help.netflix.com/en/node/23742
gorbachev 4y ago
For me pirating "services" (torrent trackers, Usenet, etc.) simply offer better choices. For mainstream content it's available around the globe, in all kinds of different formats / bitrates, with community sourced subtitles, usable on any device (hw performance limitations notwithstanding) and in my possession forever after downloading should I choose to keep the content. Another service improvement on piracy is better availability of more obscure content. Live shows, foreign movies/music or anything out of the mainstream is usually accessible better when you're pirating content. The only content class traditional media companies and online streaming offers a better service for is live broadcasting, and even then geographical restrictions f*ck you over depending on the licensing agreements.
nighthawk454 4y ago
Simple - a service problem can't be fixed with more money e.g. a lot of times no assortment of streaming subscriptions will get you access to certain shows/films/games. sometimes they may be out of print on disc as well. there may be no actual legal way to access that content. but piratebay is right there...

vincentkriek 4y ago

I think this is true for the majority of people, and I think music streaming is the example of this. I know almost no people who still pirate music, everyone has spotify. The competition between services (tidal, deezer) seems to be fought over music quality and some minor exclusives but the majority of the music collection is shared over services.

magic_hamster 4y ago
I don't have Spotify. And I never will. I don't like depending on subscription services. There are satisfactory alternatives (I find pre-compiled YouTube sets to work well) but having a local copy has always been a priority for me, and I don't see it changing any time soon.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
black_puppydog 4y ago
> some minor exclusives but the majority of the music collection is shared over services Actually I had that impression some 7-8 years ago, but since then the experience on Spotify (France) continually deteriorated, with sometimes entire playlists (not even from a single artist, but e.g. one of my fav chiptune compilations) becoming entirely unplayable (greyed out) over night. I have the impression that this situation is getting more and more similar to the madness in video streaming. Every freaking time I want to watch a specific movie (vs just taking whatever they propose right now) I end up with zero hits on the streaming platforms in the house. (But in my family's defense, they only have amazon prime, netflix, and disney+... /s) I don't participate in either of these shit-shows any longer. If this mode of operation of "one walled garden against the other" centering around exclusive content at the front of the distribution, with so much disregard for the long tail, is what streaming breeds, then streaming is no improvement over pirating. (and that doesn't even go into the economics of the system, i.e. who really makes money in it)

donmcronald 4y ago

> Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem. It’s both. I can go on Steam and find a fun looking game that can range from $0 to $100. There’s no minimum spend. I spend hundreds of dollars a year on “cheap” games and nothing on movies or music.

josteink 4y ago

> And by in large I still agree with it. For me I've only ever turned to piracy when the legitimate service has become a complete mess of red tape and user frustration. I think service quality is an issue too, at least for me. Recently I wanted to rewatch Twin Peaks on TV. I found out I can stream it on Sky Showtime, which also has an AppleTV app. Sounds great! I sign up, pay the cash and start watching. And they are sending me a 1080p video stream with stereo audio. This show has 5.1 and 7.1 DTS-MA audio-mixes on Blu-ray, so official surround-mixes definitely exists. It would have perhaps cost Showtime 200kbps extra to offer me a 5.1 AC3 track? But instead they will nickel and dime me to save some measly amounts of bandwidth and only give me a 128kbps stereo-track. I’ll be honest and admit I went out and downloaded a “proper” release for this instead, and the subscription is now cancelled. Because the service quality was not on par with a pirated alternative.

sytelus 4y ago

This is very First world view sans min wage population. In developing countries, it is always a pricing problem and people don’t care about convenience. When you have only just barely enough money for food and rent, you are not thinking about great service vs zero price trade off.

zirgs 4y ago

Also these days with ransomware, crypto miners, botnets and other crap like that it's insane to run random *.exe files on your computer. Especially if you also doing stuff like online banking on it. It's simply not worth the risk. And games that I want will be on sale sooner or later anyway.

fsflover 4y ago
I have no problem running random executables on my Qubes OS (in a hardware-virtualized, disposable VM).
- zirgs 4y ago
  Games usually have all sorts of issues when running in a VM.