6 ms·

I understand that this means "center" as per USA standards. Given that USA leans towards the extreme individualism and quite strongly to the right (Sanders woul

I understand that this means "center" as per USA standards. Given that USA leans towards the extreme individualism and quite strongly to the right (Sanders would be considered center-left in Western Europe) I guess this means that now chatGPT is right wing by European standards. That's a bit concerning, to be honest.

bundze 4y ago
I disagree. When it comes to social issues, American left-wing could be considered far-left in many countries (basing on the recent Stanford's guide to political correctness).
- rosnd 4y ago
  Does that even fit on the spectrum? From Europe things like the "Stanford's guide to political correctness" feel super niche in the same way that some weirdos on the left used to advocate for getting rid of ages of consent.
- coutego 4y ago
  Considered far-left in any country in Western Europe? (genuine question). I follow USA news a bit and nothing comes to my mind right now that could be considered far left around here. But of course I don't follow every political debate in USA, so I'm sure I'm missing some dividing issue... Do you have an example of something that could be considered far left in Europe, perhaps?
  - Dma54rhs 4y ago
    The whole left wing culture war theatre part wouldn't fly in any country in EU. American abortion freedom, try finding people in Europe who think abortion in 9th month is business as usual. No one thinks having id card to vote is racist (its as difficult and costly to get one here), cultural appropriation people wouldn't comprehend. Affirmative action etc etc. The American left wing political spectrum has nothing to do with EU left who fight for workers not all that crap.
    - fzeroracer 4y ago
      All of your arguments here are either incorrect or ignore the context for why something is the case in the US. Like there's literally a running joke on British museums appropriating artifacts, abortion laws in the EU were generally around the same timeframe as the US (12-24 weeks) and so forth. The fact that the EU political systems favor workers means that yes, the EU is already far left in comparison to any progressive politician in the US.
      - bundze 4y ago
        The thing is, Europe is not a united entity and political attitudes vary greatly between countries. For example Poland, where I live, is conservative, and American Democrats could be considered far left here when it comes to social issues (abortion, LGBTQ rights, racism). On the other hand, we have free healthcare and free university education and these are taken for granted here. Is Poland more left-wing than US or more right-wing then? I'd say that's incomparable.
    - fn-mote 4y ago
      > No one thinks having id card to vote is racist It is hard to say whether this is a left or right wing issue. I believe that both sides oppose the creation of a national ID, each for their own reasons. Example source: [1] I do not feel response about abortion adds to the dialogue, but since it's so wrong at least here is a response: > try finding people in Europe who think abortion in 9th month is business as usual Same in America. Certainly illegal. The question is first trimester abortions. [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/08/voting-rights-national-id-card/619772/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/08/voting-...
      - yucky 4y ago
        > Same in America. Certainly illegal. The question is first trimester abortions. Each state makes their own laws on abortion, and even just saying "same in America" on any state laws doesn't make sense. There are absolutely states in the US where it is legal to get an abortion at any time in the pregnancy, for any reason.[1] Colorado, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Oregon, Vermont, Alaska and New Jersey + District of Columbia. Zero restrictions. [1] https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/state-policies-later-abortions https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/state-polici...
  - bundze 4y ago
    Both you and the author of the parent comment I replied to use 'Europe'/'European' and 'Western Europe' interchangibly. That's probably causing most misunderstandings. I live in Poland which is undoubtedly an European country (right in the middle of Europe) but is rather conservative. For example gay marriage is still a controversial idea here - it's not permitted and the majority of public opinion is against. It does seem like Eastern/Central Europe is generally more socially conservative than Western Europe - but there are many exceptions. Czech Republic is a notable liberal outlier. Predominantly Catholic countries like Italy and Ireland are rather conservative (especially when it comes to issues that the Catholic church is outspoken on like gay marriage, abortion and IVF treatments). A bunch of examples here: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/10/29/eastern-and-western-europeans-differ-on-importance-of-religion-views-of-minorities-and-key-social-issues/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/10/29/eastern-and-... What I'm trying to say is that Europe is not a united entity and political attitudes vary greatly between countries. Also, I do think American Democrats could be considered far left here in Poland when it comes to social issues (abortion, LGBTQ rights, racism). On the other hand we have free healthcare and free university education and these are taken for granted here. Is Poland more left-wing than US or more right-wing then? I'd say that's incomparable.
  - Beltalowda 4y ago
    There's a gap between the political representation and what people on the left actually believe. The political representation definitely leans to the right compared to Western-European countries, for the most part anyway. But if I look at some of the discourse in American left-wing circles then ... yeah, I find some of it is pretty far out, and I typically vote things like the Socialist Party or Green Party (in a country where this actually means something). I suspect this is due to a combination of 1) not having much power, being relatively "isolated" in the political debate, not having to compromise; 2) not having any actual experience with socialist/social-democracy reality, leading to an unnuanced utopian view of things; 3) a kind of response to some of the bonkers right-wing politics of the US.
- loa_in_ 4y ago
  Stanford publications might be biased because they're American. Politics is hard. There's no objectively "correct" politics so I won't delve into the topic further.
- Teever 4y ago
  If you hadn't seen that Stanford guide that was recently posted what do you think your example for this post would have been?
  - matthewdgreen 4y ago
    Some random people on Twitter who don’t hold any political power.
- rektide 4y ago
  > based on [one extremely narrow handpicked piece of evidence] i feel like this sort of extreme bias is what has kept shifting the overton window in america away from a real center towards the radical extremist ends we've had to suffer through. brow beating bias like this with extremely narrow lenses is a bullshit asymmetry that adds so much noise & churn, that steals the oxygen from real conversations. i feel like the so called left (quite center) wants to have real discussions, has genuine intent, yet has to deal with this kind of own-the-libs attitude ad nauseum.
- l3uwin 4y ago
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- deleted 4y ago
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bundze 4y ago

I disagree. When it comes to social issues, American left-wing could be considered far-left in many countries (basing on the recent Stanford's guide to political correctness).

rosnd 4y ago
Does that even fit on the spectrum? From Europe things like the "Stanford's guide to political correctness" feel super niche in the same way that some weirdos on the left used to advocate for getting rid of ages of consent.
coutego 4y ago
Considered far-left in any country in Western Europe? (genuine question). I follow USA news a bit and nothing comes to my mind right now that could be considered far left around here. But of course I don't follow every political debate in USA, so I'm sure I'm missing some dividing issue... Do you have an example of something that could be considered far left in Europe, perhaps?
- Dma54rhs 4y ago
  The whole left wing culture war theatre part wouldn't fly in any country in EU. American abortion freedom, try finding people in Europe who think abortion in 9th month is business as usual. No one thinks having id card to vote is racist (its as difficult and costly to get one here), cultural appropriation people wouldn't comprehend. Affirmative action etc etc. The American left wing political spectrum has nothing to do with EU left who fight for workers not all that crap.
  - fzeroracer 4y ago
    All of your arguments here are either incorrect or ignore the context for why something is the case in the US. Like there's literally a running joke on British museums appropriating artifacts, abortion laws in the EU were generally around the same timeframe as the US (12-24 weeks) and so forth. The fact that the EU political systems favor workers means that yes, the EU is already far left in comparison to any progressive politician in the US.
    - bundze 4y ago
      The thing is, Europe is not a united entity and political attitudes vary greatly between countries. For example Poland, where I live, is conservative, and American Democrats could be considered far left here when it comes to social issues (abortion, LGBTQ rights, racism). On the other hand, we have free healthcare and free university education and these are taken for granted here. Is Poland more left-wing than US or more right-wing then? I'd say that's incomparable.
  - fn-mote 4y ago
    > No one thinks having id card to vote is racist It is hard to say whether this is a left or right wing issue. I believe that both sides oppose the creation of a national ID, each for their own reasons. Example source: [1] I do not feel response about abortion adds to the dialogue, but since it's so wrong at least here is a response: > try finding people in Europe who think abortion in 9th month is business as usual Same in America. Certainly illegal. The question is first trimester abortions. [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/08/voting-rights-national-id-card/619772/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/08/voting-...
    - yucky 4y ago
      > Same in America. Certainly illegal. The question is first trimester abortions. Each state makes their own laws on abortion, and even just saying "same in America" on any state laws doesn't make sense. There are absolutely states in the US where it is legal to get an abortion at any time in the pregnancy, for any reason.[1] Colorado, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Oregon, Vermont, Alaska and New Jersey + District of Columbia. Zero restrictions. [1] https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/state-policies-later-abortions https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/state-polici...
- bundze 4y ago
  Both you and the author of the parent comment I replied to use 'Europe'/'European' and 'Western Europe' interchangibly. That's probably causing most misunderstandings. I live in Poland which is undoubtedly an European country (right in the middle of Europe) but is rather conservative. For example gay marriage is still a controversial idea here - it's not permitted and the majority of public opinion is against. It does seem like Eastern/Central Europe is generally more socially conservative than Western Europe - but there are many exceptions. Czech Republic is a notable liberal outlier. Predominantly Catholic countries like Italy and Ireland are rather conservative (especially when it comes to issues that the Catholic church is outspoken on like gay marriage, abortion and IVF treatments). A bunch of examples here: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/10/29/eastern-and-western-europeans-differ-on-importance-of-religion-views-of-minorities-and-key-social-issues/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/10/29/eastern-and-... What I'm trying to say is that Europe is not a united entity and political attitudes vary greatly between countries. Also, I do think American Democrats could be considered far left here in Poland when it comes to social issues (abortion, LGBTQ rights, racism). On the other hand we have free healthcare and free university education and these are taken for granted here. Is Poland more left-wing than US or more right-wing then? I'd say that's incomparable.
- Beltalowda 4y ago
  There's a gap between the political representation and what people on the left actually believe. The political representation definitely leans to the right compared to Western-European countries, for the most part anyway. But if I look at some of the discourse in American left-wing circles then ... yeah, I find some of it is pretty far out, and I typically vote things like the Socialist Party or Green Party (in a country where this actually means something). I suspect this is due to a combination of 1) not having much power, being relatively "isolated" in the political debate, not having to compromise; 2) not having any actual experience with socialist/social-democracy reality, leading to an unnuanced utopian view of things; 3) a kind of response to some of the bonkers right-wing politics of the US.
loa_in_ 4y ago
Stanford publications might be biased because they're American. Politics is hard. There's no objectively "correct" politics so I won't delve into the topic further.
Teever 4y ago
If you hadn't seen that Stanford guide that was recently posted what do you think your example for this post would have been?
- matthewdgreen 4y ago
  Some random people on Twitter who don’t hold any political power.
rektide 4y ago
> based on [one extremely narrow handpicked piece of evidence] i feel like this sort of extreme bias is what has kept shifting the overton window in america away from a real center towards the radical extremist ends we've had to suffer through. brow beating bias like this with extremely narrow lenses is a bullshit asymmetry that adds so much noise & churn, that steals the oxygen from real conversations. i feel like the so called left (quite center) wants to have real discussions, has genuine intent, yet has to deal with this kind of own-the-libs attitude ad nauseum.
l3uwin 4y ago
[dead]
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]