6 ms·

Why not?

by hnra 4y ago

Why not?

the_gipsy 4y ago
Kotlin might fit the Java niche, if you trust someone that sells IDEs to make a language. Go's niche includes being native. If you discard that, then virtually anything that is "easy" could fit it.
- masklinn 4y ago
  > Kotlin might fit the Java niche, if you trust someone that sells IDEs to make a language. They would at least know how to make a language that's not a pain in the ass to analyse, which is probably in its favour.
  - the_gipsy 4y ago
    Yea - but that's offered by all modern languages, and they're not tied to one particular IDE since LSP took off.
    - masklinn 4y ago
      > that's offered by all modern languages I see you've yet to meet Scala. > they're not tied to one particular IDE since LSP took off. There's at least one language server for Kotlin. I'm not even a interested in (let alone a user of) Kotlin, but you seem to have a very not-objective view of it for some reason.
      - the_gipsy 4y ago
        Are you saying Scala has bad code analysis? I recall it being as good as Java's. Anyway, that's just a matter of defining "modern languages" then. > There's at least one language server for Kotlin. I didn't say there is none, I said that any modern language has one. An IDE is not a selling point anymore, in my humble opinion. > you seem to have a very not-objective view of it for some reason I just think that shoehorning Kotlin into "the go niche" is absurd , and that the "good code analysis" argument is moot.
        shakow 4y ago
        > I just think that shoehorning Kotlin into "the go niche" is absurd That's what you say, but you don't really tell us why.
        the_gipsy 4y ago
        It's not my burden of proof. If you think something like compiling kotlin instead of running a JVM is akin to compiling with go tooling, then at this point anything that somehow compiles to native (and beyond) is in the "go niche".
        masklinn 4y ago
        > It's not my burden of proof. You're the one asserting that it's unsuitable. So it very much is. > If you think something like compiling kotlin instead of running a JVM is akin to compiling with go tooling, then at this point anything that somehow compiles to native (and beyond) is in the "go niche". I don't know about the other commenters, but that's literally the only criteria you've deigned offer so far, aside from some sort of conspiratorial implications.
        the_gipsy 4y ago
        So if I say <any language> is in go's niche, it's your burden to disprove it? Look, this is getting ridiculous. Go offers easy+fast tooling out of the box. Any JVM language, compiled or not, will never be anywhere NEAR go's tooling in those terms. The extra compilation layer just makes it actually much worse. And I don't even find go particularly appealing.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Then use an AOT compiler, plenty of those for JVM since 2000. While one can excuse themselves that they were commercial, GraalVM native image, and OpenJ9 offer free beer alternatives.
  - the_gipsy 4y ago
    You're totally missing the point of the niche in question.
    - masklinn 4y ago
      So they're missing the niche of "being native", by suggesting... using an AOT (= native) JVM compiler? Meaning making essentially every JVM language native?
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      Indeed, compiling to native code is missing the question apparently. Or is the niche not being able to understand JVM languages, that expect developers to have PhD skill levels, as per Rob Pike's own words?
  - flagsrule 4y ago
    I looked into using Graal one time. Many of the dependencies I used were not compatible. I also encounter weird bugs with any of the OpenJ* alternatives. In Go, everything just works.
    - fsdjkflsjfsoij 4y ago
      The JVM proponents are usually being dishonest when they compare Java/Kotlin AOT compilation to Go. They know very well that a large number of popular libraries either outright don't work or have severe restrictions when using AOT. It's also common to run into bugs since Graal is relatively new and only a miniscule percentage of the Java community uses it. It's not even remotely close to Go where everything can be assumed to work.
      - 4y ago

Why not?

by hnra 4y ago

Why not?

Kotlin might fit the Java niche, if you trust someone that sells IDEs to make a language. Go's niche includes being native. If you discard that, then virtually anything that is "easy" could fit it.

masklinn 4y ago
> Kotlin might fit the Java niche, if you trust someone that sells IDEs to make a language. They would at least know how to make a language that's not a pain in the ass to analyse, which is probably in its favour.
- the_gipsy 4y ago
  Yea - but that's offered by all modern languages, and they're not tied to one particular IDE since LSP took off.
  - masklinn 4y ago
    > that's offered by all modern languages I see you've yet to meet Scala. > they're not tied to one particular IDE since LSP took off. There's at least one language server for Kotlin. I'm not even a interested in (let alone a user of) Kotlin, but you seem to have a very not-objective view of it for some reason.
    - the_gipsy 4y ago
      Are you saying Scala has bad code analysis? I recall it being as good as Java's. Anyway, that's just a matter of defining "modern languages" then. > There's at least one language server for Kotlin. I didn't say there is none, I said that any modern language has one. An IDE is not a selling point anymore, in my humble opinion. > you seem to have a very not-objective view of it for some reason I just think that shoehorning Kotlin into "the go niche" is absurd , and that the "good code analysis" argument is moot.
      - shakow 4y ago
        > I just think that shoehorning Kotlin into "the go niche" is absurd That's what you say, but you don't really tell us why.
        the_gipsy 4y ago
        It's not my burden of proof. If you think something like compiling kotlin instead of running a JVM is akin to compiling with go tooling, then at this point anything that somehow compiles to native (and beyond) is in the "go niche".
        masklinn 4y ago
        > It's not my burden of proof. You're the one asserting that it's unsuitable. So it very much is. > If you think something like compiling kotlin instead of running a JVM is akin to compiling with go tooling, then at this point anything that somehow compiles to native (and beyond) is in the "go niche". I don't know about the other commenters, but that's literally the only criteria you've deigned offer so far, aside from some sort of conspiratorial implications.
        the_gipsy 4y ago
        So if I say <any language> is in go's niche, it's your burden to disprove it? Look, this is getting ridiculous. Go offers easy+fast tooling out of the box. Any JVM language, compiled or not, will never be anywhere NEAR go's tooling in those terms. The extra compilation layer just makes it actually much worse. And I don't even find go particularly appealing.
pjmlp 4y ago
Then use an AOT compiler, plenty of those for JVM since 2000. While one can excuse themselves that they were commercial, GraalVM native image, and OpenJ9 offer free beer alternatives.
- the_gipsy 4y ago
  You're totally missing the point of the niche in question.
  - masklinn 4y ago
    So they're missing the niche of "being native", by suggesting... using an AOT (= native) JVM compiler? Meaning making essentially every JVM language native?
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Indeed, compiling to native code is missing the question apparently. Or is the niche not being able to understand JVM languages, that expect developers to have PhD skill levels, as per Rob Pike's own words?
- flagsrule 4y ago
  I looked into using Graal one time. Many of the dependencies I used were not compatible. I also encounter weird bugs with any of the OpenJ* alternatives. In Go, everything just works.
  - fsdjkflsjfsoij 4y ago
    The JVM proponents are usually being dishonest when they compare Java/Kotlin AOT compilation to Go. They know very well that a large number of popular libraries either outright don't work or have severe restrictions when using AOT. It's also common to run into bugs since Graal is relatively new and only a miniscule percentage of the Java community uses it. It's not even remotely close to Go where everything can be assumed to work.
    - 4y ago