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Doxxing adds nothing to the conversation. It’s not an opinion, an argument, or an artful expression — forms that free speech laws are designed to protect. Rathe

Doxxing adds nothing to the conversation. It’s not an opinion, an argument, or an artful expression — forms that free speech laws are designed to protect. Rather, doxxing is merely harassment and adds nothing substantive. Same argument can be made for racial slurs and the like. Anyone pretending otherwise is being disingenuous.

kevinmchugh 4y ago
This list of things free speech protects doesn't include statements of fact?
Zigurd 4y ago
Plane tracking is a significant form of OSINT for some investors.
- programmarchy 4y ago
  That’s obviously not the motivation of ElonJet. Again, disingenuous. If there was anything substantive about ElonJet, it would have been the statistics on jet fuel consumption, because that makes a statement about hypocrisy. They could have posted that without revealing locations, which crosses the line to singling out an individual for the purpose of harassment.
  - Zigurd 4y ago
    The location of his plane is very relevant to anyone looking to see if he might pay attention to Tesla, again, someday.
    - programmarchy 4y ago
      I’ll amend my previous statement and instead say that some people are being disingenuous and others are simply obtuse.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      Or if he's visiting Russia. The degree to which Musk is upset by this makes me wonder if there isn't something more to it than just 'personal safety' concerns fed by paranoia. It may well be that the location of his plane tells a story that he does not want exposed. Because frankly the amount of goodwill that he's burning over this makes no sense at all.
      - wpietri 4y ago
        For me the simpler explanation is that he had a legitimately scary experience involving his child. Combine that with the (self-inflicted) stress of his last few months, his thin-skinned nature, and him firing anybody at Twitter with a backbone and it seems very plausible to me that he's lashing out and thinking he's doing great. Somebody described his Twitter purchase as "fragile narcissist buys criticism factory", so I think he has wedged himself into a situation that his ego makes both intolerable and inescapable. If he had somebody in his life to talk sense into him ("honey, put down your phone and come to bed"), I'd expect him to walk away and consider it rationally. But here I could imagine him continuing to spiral for quite a while. To me, it's tragic in the way that Rudy Giuliani or Kanye West is: too much success can create the conditions for a long, lonely downward slide.
- mumumu 4y ago
  They can gather this data through other means...
xcrunner529 4y ago
Trump, and most right wingers were all banned from TOS violations and harassment and doxxing. Look up LibsofTikTok and what they did too. Suddenly you change your tube on “free speech absolutely” back to something even more obscured. Good job.
- programmarchy 4y ago
  I’m personally not on team Trump or “Libs of TikTok” or whatever. If they were doxxing, then fuck them, too.
- NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
  >Trump, and most right wingers were all banned from TOS violations and harassment and doxxing. This is directly contrary to the reporting in Twitter Files by Matt Taibbi, Bari Weiss, and Michael Shellenberger whose journalistic integrity and credentials exceed yours and mine combined by orders of magnitude: "On Jan 7, senior Twitter execs: - create justifications to ban Trump - seek a change of policy for Trump alone, distinct from other political leaders - express no concern for the free speech or democracy implications of a ban" https://twitter.com/ShellenbergerMD/status/1601720455005511680 https://twitter.com/ShellenbergerMD/status/16017204550055116... And the only doxxing related to LibsOfTikTok was Taylor Lorenz doxxing LibsOfTikTok, to the point that Lorenz showed up at LibsOfTikTok's house in person herself. She didn't just doxx her, she went to her house in person. There are pictures. edit: Rate limited for telling a truth that HN dislikes again... Here's my reply to the below: >If they then publish your home address? Sure. She did publish her home address, after showing up there. Some tweets containing it are apparently still up, as she complained about it to Musk in a thread about the journalists being suspended (for 7 days it turns out). She claimed the identity of the account was of public interest on CNN here: https://twitter.com/TPostMillennial/status/1518284536966045696 https://twitter.com/TPostMillennial/status/15182845369660456... But then showed up at relatives' houses of LibsOfTikTok too: https://thepostmillennial.com/libs-of-tik-tok-exposes-taylor-lorenz-harassing-her-family-at-home https://thepostmillennial.com/libs-of-tik-tok-exposes-taylor... Do you mean to tell me that the relatives of that account were of public interest after exposing the account as an American woman? It was a deliberate doxxing, by Taylor Lorenz aimed at LibsOfTikTok on purpose.
adrr 4y ago
You don't have right to privacy when you fly your jet in public airspace. Elon has a choice, he can take commercial. Just like you don't the right privacy when people take pictures of your house as proven with the famous Streisand case. Do you think Streisand case should have went the other way?
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  Private platforms aren’t obligated to host your privacy invading photos of people’s houses, if they feel those would be doxxing. As Twitter’s policy has been, when they banned people for posting videos with visible house numbers because they doxxed the people in them.
  - belltaco 4y ago
    From: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1519036983137509376?lang=en https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1519036983137509376?lang... Elon Musk @elonmusk "I simply mean that which matches the law. I am against censorship that goes far beyond the law. If people want less free speech, they will ask government to pass laws to that effect. Therefore, going beyond the law is contrary to the will of the people."
  - vel0city 4y ago
    It seems most people aren't arguing Musk doesn't have the right to ban this, they're just pointing out that literally a couple of weeks ago Musk said this exact account was an example of free speech he would protect. If Musk hadn't been making a big deal about supporting free speech for the last several months there wouldn't be a problem with him banning all these accounts. It's his platform he can do what he wants. dang can ban me at any time here, it's kind of his party in many ways. But dang isn't running around claiming to support all forms of legal speech, he's made a point he's trying to enforce his and the team's ideas of community guidelines.
    - adrr 4y ago
      He also has no problems violating his on rules and is asking his followers to doxx someone. Appropriate solution is file a police report which he didn't do. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1603235998263123969?s=20&t=n87IC-lWrMWZXdk4752L9Q https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1603235998263123969?s=20...

kevinmchugh 4y ago

This list of things free speech protects doesn't include statements of fact?

Zigurd 4y ago

Plane tracking is a significant form of OSINT for some investors.

programmarchy 4y ago
That’s obviously not the motivation of ElonJet. Again, disingenuous. If there was anything substantive about ElonJet, it would have been the statistics on jet fuel consumption, because that makes a statement about hypocrisy. They could have posted that without revealing locations, which crosses the line to singling out an individual for the purpose of harassment.
- Zigurd 4y ago
  The location of his plane is very relevant to anyone looking to see if he might pay attention to Tesla, again, someday.
  - programmarchy 4y ago
    I’ll amend my previous statement and instead say that some people are being disingenuous and others are simply obtuse.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Or if he's visiting Russia. The degree to which Musk is upset by this makes me wonder if there isn't something more to it than just 'personal safety' concerns fed by paranoia. It may well be that the location of his plane tells a story that he does not want exposed. Because frankly the amount of goodwill that he's burning over this makes no sense at all.
    - wpietri 4y ago
      For me the simpler explanation is that he had a legitimately scary experience involving his child. Combine that with the (self-inflicted) stress of his last few months, his thin-skinned nature, and him firing anybody at Twitter with a backbone and it seems very plausible to me that he's lashing out and thinking he's doing great. Somebody described his Twitter purchase as "fragile narcissist buys criticism factory", so I think he has wedged himself into a situation that his ego makes both intolerable and inescapable. If he had somebody in his life to talk sense into him ("honey, put down your phone and come to bed"), I'd expect him to walk away and consider it rationally. But here I could imagine him continuing to spiral for quite a while. To me, it's tragic in the way that Rudy Giuliani or Kanye West is: too much success can create the conditions for a long, lonely downward slide.
mumumu 4y ago
They can gather this data through other means...

xcrunner529 4y ago

Trump, and most right wingers were all banned from TOS violations and harassment and doxxing. Look up LibsofTikTok and what they did too. Suddenly you change your tube on “free speech absolutely” back to something even more obscured. Good job.

programmarchy 4y ago
I’m personally not on team Trump or “Libs of TikTok” or whatever. If they were doxxing, then fuck them, too.
NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
>Trump, and most right wingers were all banned from TOS violations and harassment and doxxing. This is directly contrary to the reporting in Twitter Files by Matt Taibbi, Bari Weiss, and Michael Shellenberger whose journalistic integrity and credentials exceed yours and mine combined by orders of magnitude: "On Jan 7, senior Twitter execs: - create justifications to ban Trump - seek a change of policy for Trump alone, distinct from other political leaders - express no concern for the free speech or democracy implications of a ban" https://twitter.com/ShellenbergerMD/status/1601720455005511680 https://twitter.com/ShellenbergerMD/status/16017204550055116... And the only doxxing related to LibsOfTikTok was Taylor Lorenz doxxing LibsOfTikTok, to the point that Lorenz showed up at LibsOfTikTok's house in person herself. She didn't just doxx her, she went to her house in person. There are pictures. edit: Rate limited for telling a truth that HN dislikes again... Here's my reply to the below: >If they then publish your home address? Sure. She did publish her home address, after showing up there. Some tweets containing it are apparently still up, as she complained about it to Musk in a thread about the journalists being suspended (for 7 days it turns out). She claimed the identity of the account was of public interest on CNN here: https://twitter.com/TPostMillennial/status/1518284536966045696 https://twitter.com/TPostMillennial/status/15182845369660456... But then showed up at relatives' houses of LibsOfTikTok too: https://thepostmillennial.com/libs-of-tik-tok-exposes-taylor-lorenz-harassing-her-family-at-home https://thepostmillennial.com/libs-of-tik-tok-exposes-taylor... Do you mean to tell me that the relatives of that account were of public interest after exposing the account as an American woman? It was a deliberate doxxing, by Taylor Lorenz aimed at LibsOfTikTok on purpose.

adrr 4y ago

You don't have right to privacy when you fly your jet in public airspace. Elon has a choice, he can take commercial. Just like you don't the right privacy when people take pictures of your house as proven with the famous Streisand case. Do you think Streisand case should have went the other way?

zmgsabst 4y ago
Private platforms aren’t obligated to host your privacy invading photos of people’s houses, if they feel those would be doxxing. As Twitter’s policy has been, when they banned people for posting videos with visible house numbers because they doxxed the people in them.
- belltaco 4y ago
  From: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1519036983137509376?lang=en https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1519036983137509376?lang... Elon Musk @elonmusk "I simply mean that which matches the law. I am against censorship that goes far beyond the law. If people want less free speech, they will ask government to pass laws to that effect. Therefore, going beyond the law is contrary to the will of the people."
- vel0city 4y ago
  It seems most people aren't arguing Musk doesn't have the right to ban this, they're just pointing out that literally a couple of weeks ago Musk said this exact account was an example of free speech he would protect. If Musk hadn't been making a big deal about supporting free speech for the last several months there wouldn't be a problem with him banning all these accounts. It's his platform he can do what he wants. dang can ban me at any time here, it's kind of his party in many ways. But dang isn't running around claiming to support all forms of legal speech, he's made a point he's trying to enforce his and the team's ideas of community guidelines.
  - adrr 4y ago
    He also has no problems violating his on rules and is asking his followers to doxx someone. Appropriate solution is file a police report which he didn't do. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1603235998263123969?s=20&t=n87IC-lWrMWZXdk4752L9Q https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1603235998263123969?s=20...