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Now that Matter and Thread are finally starting to roll out, is there really any good reason for new products to still use Z-Wave? Or am I just crazy to see thi

Now that Matter and Thread are finally starting to roll out, is there really any good reason for new products to still use Z-Wave? Or am I just crazy to see this as Z-Wave trying to continue a format war (first started with Zigbee) that they're almost certainly going to lose?

worldmerge 4y ago
Do Matter and Thread use wifi or are they a different radio freq?
- ihattendorf 4y ago
  Thread is a mesh IPv6 based network that operates over the 2.4 GHz ISM band but is not WiFi. Matter is a communication protocol built on top of Thread, WiFi, and BLE (and potentially others in the future).
  - vineyardmike 4y ago
    > Matter is a communication protocol built on top of... Matter is a communication protocol built on top of IP, with a special blessing to Ethernet, Wifi, BLE, and Thread.
- petre 4y ago
  Thread and ZigBee operate in the 2.4 Ghz and also 833/915 Mhz although in practice I've never seen any devices that explicitly claim to be using the sub Ghz bands. It's not WiFi, it's IEEE 802.15.4. Matter supports devices connected through WiFi, Thread and Ethernet with BT provisioning.
- dwaite 4y ago
  Thread is a mesh protocol on 6LoWPAN, which in turn is based on the same underlying 802.11.4 as Zigbee in the 2.4 Ghz spectrum. Its claims to fame is having reasonable response times/batteru life and being based on IPv6. Being based on IP allows devices to talk to one another, and for bridging those devices to the broader network and potentially to the internet with clear layer separation. Matter is a IP-based IoT discovery and use standard. Devices advertise Thread and/or Wifi support for wireless support. It also standardizes onboarding (I know BLE is an option there) and the underlying security, and mandates certain capabilities such as supporting multiple 'admin' software at once. Devices using other wireless tech can also theoretically work with Matter with a gateway that does protocol translation, supports device onboarding, and then exposes them onto the network.
  - kps 4y ago
    > Devices using other wireless tech can also theoretically work with Matter with a gateway Signify (née Philips Lighting) has got Matter certification for their Hue hub.
ihattendorf 4y ago
Z-Wave devices are almost universally better (longer battery life, longer range, more reliable, etc.) than Zigbee (I have both). Not sure if this is based on price (Z-Wave devices being more expensive), certification, different radio frequency, or something else. With the investment into Thread (still sharing frequency with 2.4 GHz WiFi) I could see this changing.
- yencabulator 4y ago
  > longer battery life Meanwhile, this HN discussion has people telling others to never use battery-powered Z-Wave devices, or it'll be laggy...
- vineyardmike 4y ago
  I don't own ZWave devices, but comments here seem to question their superiority. The range and battery life is likely due to the lower-frequency it uses, which is less congested and longer range. Typically, this will translate to a lower power usage (better battery life).
  - CommanderData 4y ago
    Linus tech tips has done a few videos on his smart home (z-wave) and he does not seem overly happy with it.. I'm really glad I went Zigbee as its been almost completely pain free even with third party non cloud software. I can't fault it but I do worry about future security updates should something be discovered in Zigbees stack.
    - vineyardmike 4y ago
      > I can't fault it but I do worry about future security updates should something be discovered in Zigbees stack. I agree it’ll likely be few devices that’s ever see an update but I think theoretically Zigbee proton supports OTA from the hubs. I know home assistant supports automatic OTAs from a handful of brands.
ars 4y ago
Z-Wave has a much better range, and uses a less congested radio band. Matter and Thread can work with Z-Wave devices with the help of a bridge, so it's not as bad as you might think. But yes, this is an attempt to compete with Zigbee.
rlpb 4y ago
AIUI, Z-Wave means interoperability at device level, without even a controller or a compatibility shim, across a variety of manufacturers. Niche devices can exist because it's easy for a niche manufacturer to integrate. And if my Internet connection is down, or even the controller is down, the system still functions with graceful degradation only. With Zigbee, AIUI you get a mostly closed system locked in to whichever Zigbee vendor you chose. Interoperability only occurs at a higher level in a much more error-prone and lowest common denominator fashion.
- vineyardmike 4y ago
  > With Zigbee, AIUI you get a mostly closed system locked in to whichever Zigbee vendor you chose. No, all devices should work with other vendors. Some vendors don't play as nice, however. The Zigbee light-link spec should allow all lights to work with all light controllers (eg zigged remotes on the wall). Any "true" hub should work with all zigged devices too. Some minor company's hub may not support all products, but thats if they don't comply with the protocol - ZWave theoretically has that problem. Zigbee is probably more "open" since the protocol has less certification requirements. The only main bifurcation is that "Zigbee" and "Zigbee Light Link" are slightly different and you may end up with a "ZLL" hub that doesn't support non-light devices. > And if my Internet connection is down, or even the controller is down, the system still functions with graceful degradation only. Zigbee supports this behavior. You can pair lights/remotes for example with no hub required. Its usually advertised as a graceful upgrade path instead of a degradation path.
  - rlpb 4y ago
    Based on what others have also said, it sounds like you're describing interoperability in Zigbee in theory, whereas I described interoperability in Z-Wave in practice.
ocdtrekkie 4y ago
Z-Wave is a better technology. I want home automation hardware to be simple, reliable, and not Internet connected.
- vardump 4y ago
  I'm using no cloud Zigbee home automation. Seems to be very reliable and has really great range thanks to the mesh networking. It's also really simple. Zigbee allows using multiple vendors with ease, not tied to just one manufacturer. Again, no internet connection required.
  - ocdtrekkie 4y ago
    I'm using Insteon personally, which is mesh networked but relatively similar to Z-Wave. (And it's entirely proprietary still.) It's not just about cloud connectivity though: I don't want my home automation hardware speaking IP or anything like it. Nor do I want them to need a complicated enough protocol to justify requirements like firmware updates. All of this introduces opportunities for security flaws and the ability to create botnets. Home automation hardware should be simple, take simple instructions over local communication bands, and then a single central controller should bring the greater intelligence and access. I think my Insteon thermostat is nearly the ideal smarthome product: It's a thermostat, and can work entirely standalone as just that. It cannot be updated or reprogrammed. But it will accept commands (no different than button presses on the front of it) over the RF protocol, and of course, send its sensor data and operating status. Things like incidents where Nests had software updates that let everyone freeze or whatever in the winter just... isn't really a concern with a good design like this.
    - vineyardmike 4y ago
      > I'm using Insteon personally, which is mesh networked but relatively similar to Z-Wave. (And it's entirely proprietary still.) One of the benefits of non-proprietary (especially IP based) is that you're more immune to company failures, like when Insteon shut down. > I don't want my home automation hardware speaking IP or anything like it Why? Its just a protocol? It doesn't mean a cloud is involved, it doesn't even have to be networked to your main LAN. > Home automation hardware should be simple, take simple instructions over local communication bands, and then a single central controller should bring the greater intelligence and access. IP seems the simplest option. Even though its more layers than a binary protocol, the interoperability and easy ability for most software people to create IP software means longer future. > It cannot be updated or reprogrammed. But it will accept commands (no different than button presses on the front of it) over the RF protocol, and of course, send its sensor data and operating status. What was your plan when Insteon went belly up? The lack of ability to reprogram means you couldn't update it to work with a newer hub/protocol.

worldmerge 4y ago

Do Matter and Thread use wifi or are they a different radio freq?

ihattendorf 4y ago
Thread is a mesh IPv6 based network that operates over the 2.4 GHz ISM band but is not WiFi. Matter is a communication protocol built on top of Thread, WiFi, and BLE (and potentially others in the future).
- vineyardmike 4y ago
  > Matter is a communication protocol built on top of... Matter is a communication protocol built on top of IP, with a special blessing to Ethernet, Wifi, BLE, and Thread.
petre 4y ago
Thread and ZigBee operate in the 2.4 Ghz and also 833/915 Mhz although in practice I've never seen any devices that explicitly claim to be using the sub Ghz bands. It's not WiFi, it's IEEE 802.15.4. Matter supports devices connected through WiFi, Thread and Ethernet with BT provisioning.
dwaite 4y ago
Thread is a mesh protocol on 6LoWPAN, which in turn is based on the same underlying 802.11.4 as Zigbee in the 2.4 Ghz spectrum. Its claims to fame is having reasonable response times/batteru life and being based on IPv6. Being based on IP allows devices to talk to one another, and for bridging those devices to the broader network and potentially to the internet with clear layer separation. Matter is a IP-based IoT discovery and use standard. Devices advertise Thread and/or Wifi support for wireless support. It also standardizes onboarding (I know BLE is an option there) and the underlying security, and mandates certain capabilities such as supporting multiple 'admin' software at once. Devices using other wireless tech can also theoretically work with Matter with a gateway that does protocol translation, supports device onboarding, and then exposes them onto the network.
- kps 4y ago
  > Devices using other wireless tech can also theoretically work with Matter with a gateway Signify (née Philips Lighting) has got Matter certification for their Hue hub.

ihattendorf 4y ago

Z-Wave devices are almost universally better (longer battery life, longer range, more reliable, etc.) than Zigbee (I have both). Not sure if this is based on price (Z-Wave devices being more expensive), certification, different radio frequency, or something else. With the investment into Thread (still sharing frequency with 2.4 GHz WiFi) I could see this changing.

yencabulator 4y ago
> longer battery life Meanwhile, this HN discussion has people telling others to never use battery-powered Z-Wave devices, or it'll be laggy...
vineyardmike 4y ago
I don't own ZWave devices, but comments here seem to question their superiority. The range and battery life is likely due to the lower-frequency it uses, which is less congested and longer range. Typically, this will translate to a lower power usage (better battery life).
- CommanderData 4y ago
  Linus tech tips has done a few videos on his smart home (z-wave) and he does not seem overly happy with it.. I'm really glad I went Zigbee as its been almost completely pain free even with third party non cloud software. I can't fault it but I do worry about future security updates should something be discovered in Zigbees stack.
  - vineyardmike 4y ago
    > I can't fault it but I do worry about future security updates should something be discovered in Zigbees stack. I agree it’ll likely be few devices that’s ever see an update but I think theoretically Zigbee proton supports OTA from the hubs. I know home assistant supports automatic OTAs from a handful of brands.

ars 4y ago

Z-Wave has a much better range, and uses a less congested radio band. Matter and Thread can work with Z-Wave devices with the help of a bridge, so it's not as bad as you might think. But yes, this is an attempt to compete with Zigbee.

rlpb 4y ago

AIUI, Z-Wave means interoperability at device level, without even a controller or a compatibility shim, across a variety of manufacturers. Niche devices can exist because it's easy for a niche manufacturer to integrate. And if my Internet connection is down, or even the controller is down, the system still functions with graceful degradation only. With Zigbee, AIUI you get a mostly closed system locked in to whichever Zigbee vendor you chose. Interoperability only occurs at a higher level in a much more error-prone and lowest common denominator fashion.

vineyardmike 4y ago
> With Zigbee, AIUI you get a mostly closed system locked in to whichever Zigbee vendor you chose. No, all devices should work with other vendors. Some vendors don't play as nice, however. The Zigbee light-link spec should allow all lights to work with all light controllers (eg zigged remotes on the wall). Any "true" hub should work with all zigged devices too. Some minor company's hub may not support all products, but thats if they don't comply with the protocol - ZWave theoretically has that problem. Zigbee is probably more "open" since the protocol has less certification requirements. The only main bifurcation is that "Zigbee" and "Zigbee Light Link" are slightly different and you may end up with a "ZLL" hub that doesn't support non-light devices. > And if my Internet connection is down, or even the controller is down, the system still functions with graceful degradation only. Zigbee supports this behavior. You can pair lights/remotes for example with no hub required. Its usually advertised as a graceful upgrade path instead of a degradation path.
- rlpb 4y ago
  Based on what others have also said, it sounds like you're describing interoperability in Zigbee in theory, whereas I described interoperability in Z-Wave in practice.

ocdtrekkie 4y ago

Z-Wave is a better technology. I want home automation hardware to be simple, reliable, and not Internet connected.

vardump 4y ago
I'm using no cloud Zigbee home automation. Seems to be very reliable and has really great range thanks to the mesh networking. It's also really simple. Zigbee allows using multiple vendors with ease, not tied to just one manufacturer. Again, no internet connection required.
- ocdtrekkie 4y ago
  I'm using Insteon personally, which is mesh networked but relatively similar to Z-Wave. (And it's entirely proprietary still.) It's not just about cloud connectivity though: I don't want my home automation hardware speaking IP or anything like it. Nor do I want them to need a complicated enough protocol to justify requirements like firmware updates. All of this introduces opportunities for security flaws and the ability to create botnets. Home automation hardware should be simple, take simple instructions over local communication bands, and then a single central controller should bring the greater intelligence and access. I think my Insteon thermostat is nearly the ideal smarthome product: It's a thermostat, and can work entirely standalone as just that. It cannot be updated or reprogrammed. But it will accept commands (no different than button presses on the front of it) over the RF protocol, and of course, send its sensor data and operating status. Things like incidents where Nests had software updates that let everyone freeze or whatever in the winter just... isn't really a concern with a good design like this.
  - vineyardmike 4y ago
    > I'm using Insteon personally, which is mesh networked but relatively similar to Z-Wave. (And it's entirely proprietary still.) One of the benefits of non-proprietary (especially IP based) is that you're more immune to company failures, like when Insteon shut down. > I don't want my home automation hardware speaking IP or anything like it Why? Its just a protocol? It doesn't mean a cloud is involved, it doesn't even have to be networked to your main LAN. > Home automation hardware should be simple, take simple instructions over local communication bands, and then a single central controller should bring the greater intelligence and access. IP seems the simplest option. Even though its more layers than a binary protocol, the interoperability and easy ability for most software people to create IP software means longer future. > It cannot be updated or reprogrammed. But it will accept commands (no different than button presses on the front of it) over the RF protocol, and of course, send its sensor data and operating status. What was your plan when Insteon went belly up? The lack of ability to reprogram means you couldn't update it to work with a newer hub/protocol.