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1. Presidential candidate, threat to Erdogan's chances for the Turkish elections next year. 2. Conveniently just jailed for two years.

by aritmo 4y ago

MonkeyClub 4y ago
Still, a smaller scale intervention than the 2016 made-up coup. Almost “surgical”, you could say. Edit: Thanks to all the commenters for the additional info, it’s allowed me to expand my understanding of Turkish politics! I see that what appeared to me as a “surgical coup”, guided by a government with ulterior motives, appeared so because of the very rapid and accurate response of the government - and of the people. I still remember that appeal by Erdogan to the people via video call: within one minute, he divested the coup of any legitimacy, and motivated the Turkish people to defend their democracy. This still doesn’t justify Erdogan’s subsequent pogrom, but it was really a superb live moment of political genius, with immediate popular response.
- threesmegiste 4y ago
  coup is not made-up. They killed more than 250 people live on air. corpses are in the middle. they shot at the citizen with snipers. Those who resisted the coup were screened by helicopters. They all have camera footage.
  - Nathanba 4y ago
    people being killed is not proof of a coup against the government. The government itself can also commit false flags and kill its own citizens
    - cassepipe 4y ago
      Yes, potentially everything could be something else than what it appears to be... The question is : Is it reasonnable to think so ? Does it make more sense than the coup being just another coup (failed this time) in turkish history ? What does the evidence suggest ?
  - rgavuliak 4y ago
    I think at that time it was reasoned that it was fake because they could have shot down Erdogan's plane he was on. They didn't and ended up executed. Occam's razor begs the question - why wouldn't they do it unless it wasn't a genuine attempt?
    - kaanski 4y ago
      If I remember correctly the coup was rushed by its organisers because the authorities had caught wind of it and were beginning an investigation. Generally coups take place in the middle of the night when everyone is asleep. This was during rush hour. Usually coups involve taking over key administrative buildings as quickly as possible. They took over one of the busiest bridges in Istanbul. The attempted coup also lacked the majority support of the military it requires to be successful. 97% of the Turkish Armed Forces ranking officers weren’t involved in the coup. 66% of the military's top leadership weren't involved in the coup. They only had 35 jets and 37 helicopters. During a coup the military should not be fighting itself whilst also attempting to take control. In this case the coups forces were smaller and worse equipped than the governments military.
    - SlickNixon 4y ago
      They weren't sure it was him. Puts it in perspective that the military pilots would be averse to shooting down a civilian passenger jet. See here: >TC-ATA [Erdogan's jet] used a callsign THY 8456 to disguise as a Turkish Airlines airplane (Turkish’s callsign is THY) [0] >The jets didn’t fire after the presidential plane’s pilot told the fighter jet pilots over the radio that it was a Turkish Airlines flight, a senior counter-terrorism official told the Guardian. [1] [0] https://theaviationist.com/2016/07/18/exclusive-all-the-details-about-the-aerial-battle-over-turkey-during-the-military-coup/ https://theaviationist.com/2016/07/18/exclusive-all-the-deta... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/18/military-coup-was-well-planned-and-very-nearly-succeeded-say-turkish-officials https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/18/military-coup-...
    - unity1001 4y ago
      > I think at that time it was reasoned that it was fake because they could have shot down Erdogan's plane he was on. They should have been able to shoot it down. However that they werent able to do so and encountered problems with their aircraft suggests outside intervention. Erdogan being aware that his location was being targeted by the coup's special forces and swiftly moving away from there is another indicator to that end. Which are likely reasons why Turkey is quite friendly with Russia at the moment - the only power that has enough intelligence strength and the means to jam equipments of aircraft.
- kaanski 4y ago
  Erdogan definitely took advantage of the aftermath of the coup to purge the military but the coup was not “made up”. This was mostly a theory thrown around by western journalists who first tried to claim that a coup against Erdogan would be a good thing, a “liberal coup”. Followed by them pushing the idea it was fake. I dislike Erdogan but hearing from my family’s experiences during the last coup in Turkiye I’ll take a democratically elected government I dislike over another military dictatorship. I’m really disappointed in the media here in the west and the ideas they were pushing during that time. Edit Two extra points: 1. Turkiye has an extensive history of coups and general military intervention in politics which sets a precedent for this kind of coup attempt. 2. These sorts of claims are really akin to claiming 9/11 was an inside job. For some reason when it’s Turkiye being discussed what should be rightly identified as conspiracy theories become socially acceptable and viable in people’s minds.
  - radu_floricica 4y ago
    Good thing or not, coups in Turkey were a feature of their democratic system. One of the problems they had to contend with was a continuing push to religious governments - a sort of "majority dictatorship", because probably well over half the population leans religious, but voting politicians by this criteria will end democracy pretty quick. So Ataturk left the military as guardian dogs, with a more or less official mandate to bring down any overly Islamic governments and restore democracy. And it worked, for quite a long time. I'm not saying coups were nice, or civilized. I can easily take your word that they were brutal. I'm just saying they were part of the system, and when they stopped working the system failed.
    - kaanski 4y ago
      I would argue that the although the military like to paint themselves as guardians of democracy they don’t exactly have a great track record. The 1980 coup banned all political parties, all trade unions and the Kurdish language. They then “democratised” the country by only allowing parties that were junta approved, two of which were established directly by the junta themselves, to participate in elections. This is not to mention the hundreds of thousands of people arrested, hundreds of thousands denied passports, tens of thousands killed either directly, in custody or through capital punishment. Turkiye today does not have a “failed system” because there are no coups they have a system which is recovering from coups. I’m not an Islamist, I don’t support Erdogan. A large number of Turks don’t. But the paternalist idea that Turks are unable to govern themselves without violent takeovers and reprisals for the crime of voting for politicians they agree with is not good for the country and is not democratic. Edit “Dictatorship by majority” as you describe it is the definition of a democracy. The majority dictate the policy of the country. Unless my definition is wrong. Edit 2 Claiming coups “were a feature of their democratic system” is an oxymoron and something I’m almost shocked to hear in a non satirical sense. Until you can convince me that locusts are a feature for crops you won’t convince me that coups can be a feature of democracy.
- cassepipe 4y ago
  What are your sources on the coup being made-up ? I don't know much about it but it does seem credible given the turkish military coup history. Especially since traditionaly, the army has taken the side of the CHP, oppposing Erdogan.
- zapfranklin 4y ago
  As someone who spent a very long night in the middle of Beyoğlu during the coup (e.g., small arms fire, sonic booms that shattered windows, run on ATMs) and extremely tense weeks that followed (e.g., gangs of men patrolling the streets, shouting takbir, and threatening less conservative citizens), it certainly felt real. I personally think the truth lies not in either binary option, but somewhere in between. A political event can both be organic in nature and carefully exploited by and for the benefit of the other side.
- Kukumber 4y ago
  Made up coup? There was clear signs of both CIA/Mossad involvement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt#Allegations_of_CIA_involvement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...
  - kingofpandora 4y ago
    Where? Seems like baseless accusations in regard to CIA and nothing implicates Mossad.
    - Kukumber 4y ago
      Follow the source, and do research on the different protagonists, it's quite obvious, it's quite similar with a recent event in Iran, there were legitimate protests against an evil regime, i don't deny that and i support the protests, Iranians deserve a better future and an independent sovereign revolution, but there were help from the west, one of them, France, got caught [1], they probably have been tortured and manipulated to lie, but their presence there is already suspicious It's similar to the position in Ukraine, officially Israel is not there, but when you dig through the propaganda, you find some gems [2] [1] - https://www.thelocal.fr/20221006/iran-state-tv-airs-alleged-confessions-of-two-detained-french-nationals/ https://www.thelocal.fr/20221006/iran-state-tv-airs-alleged-... [2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhXevYcytRc&t=30s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhXevYcytRc&t=30s I should conclude with: don't get me wrong, i support the mission and the goal, i just question the methods and i challenge the dogma
      - kingofpandora 4y ago
        I was hoping you had some evidence of Mossad or the CIA being involved in the coup in Turkey, but you don't, which is what I thought.
        Kukumber 4y ago
        I'm not a CIA agent, why would i have secret and confidential information? Turkey's intelligence has, read the source

1. Presidential candidate, threat to Erdogan's chances for the Turkish elections next year. 2. Conveniently just jailed for two years.

by aritmo 4y ago

1. Presidential candidate, threat to Erdogan's chances for the Turkish elections next year. 2. Conveniently just jailed for two years.

MonkeyClub 4y ago

Still, a smaller scale intervention than the 2016 made-up coup. Almost “surgical”, you could say. Edit: Thanks to all the commenters for the additional info, it’s allowed me to expand my understanding of Turkish politics! I see that what appeared to me as a “surgical coup”, guided by a government with ulterior motives, appeared so because of the very rapid and accurate response of the government - and of the people. I still remember that appeal by Erdogan to the people via video call: within one minute, he divested the coup of any legitimacy, and motivated the Turkish people to defend their democracy. This still doesn’t justify Erdogan’s subsequent pogrom, but it was really a superb live moment of political genius, with immediate popular response.

threesmegiste 4y ago
coup is not made-up. They killed more than 250 people live on air. corpses are in the middle. they shot at the citizen with snipers. Those who resisted the coup were screened by helicopters. They all have camera footage.
- Nathanba 4y ago
  people being killed is not proof of a coup against the government. The government itself can also commit false flags and kill its own citizens
  - cassepipe 4y ago
    Yes, potentially everything could be something else than what it appears to be... The question is : Is it reasonnable to think so ? Does it make more sense than the coup being just another coup (failed this time) in turkish history ? What does the evidence suggest ?
- rgavuliak 4y ago
  I think at that time it was reasoned that it was fake because they could have shot down Erdogan's plane he was on. They didn't and ended up executed. Occam's razor begs the question - why wouldn't they do it unless it wasn't a genuine attempt?
  - kaanski 4y ago
    If I remember correctly the coup was rushed by its organisers because the authorities had caught wind of it and were beginning an investigation. Generally coups take place in the middle of the night when everyone is asleep. This was during rush hour. Usually coups involve taking over key administrative buildings as quickly as possible. They took over one of the busiest bridges in Istanbul. The attempted coup also lacked the majority support of the military it requires to be successful. 97% of the Turkish Armed Forces ranking officers weren’t involved in the coup. 66% of the military's top leadership weren't involved in the coup. They only had 35 jets and 37 helicopters. During a coup the military should not be fighting itself whilst also attempting to take control. In this case the coups forces were smaller and worse equipped than the governments military.
  - SlickNixon 4y ago
    They weren't sure it was him. Puts it in perspective that the military pilots would be averse to shooting down a civilian passenger jet. See here: >TC-ATA [Erdogan's jet] used a callsign THY 8456 to disguise as a Turkish Airlines airplane (Turkish’s callsign is THY) [0] >The jets didn’t fire after the presidential plane’s pilot told the fighter jet pilots over the radio that it was a Turkish Airlines flight, a senior counter-terrorism official told the Guardian. [1] [0] https://theaviationist.com/2016/07/18/exclusive-all-the-details-about-the-aerial-battle-over-turkey-during-the-military-coup/ https://theaviationist.com/2016/07/18/exclusive-all-the-deta... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/18/military-coup-was-well-planned-and-very-nearly-succeeded-say-turkish-officials https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/18/military-coup-...
  - unity1001 4y ago
    > I think at that time it was reasoned that it was fake because they could have shot down Erdogan's plane he was on. They should have been able to shoot it down. However that they werent able to do so and encountered problems with their aircraft suggests outside intervention. Erdogan being aware that his location was being targeted by the coup's special forces and swiftly moving away from there is another indicator to that end. Which are likely reasons why Turkey is quite friendly with Russia at the moment - the only power that has enough intelligence strength and the means to jam equipments of aircraft.
kaanski 4y ago
Erdogan definitely took advantage of the aftermath of the coup to purge the military but the coup was not “made up”. This was mostly a theory thrown around by western journalists who first tried to claim that a coup against Erdogan would be a good thing, a “liberal coup”. Followed by them pushing the idea it was fake. I dislike Erdogan but hearing from my family’s experiences during the last coup in Turkiye I’ll take a democratically elected government I dislike over another military dictatorship. I’m really disappointed in the media here in the west and the ideas they were pushing during that time. Edit Two extra points: 1. Turkiye has an extensive history of coups and general military intervention in politics which sets a precedent for this kind of coup attempt. 2. These sorts of claims are really akin to claiming 9/11 was an inside job. For some reason when it’s Turkiye being discussed what should be rightly identified as conspiracy theories become socially acceptable and viable in people’s minds.
- radu_floricica 4y ago
  Good thing or not, coups in Turkey were a feature of their democratic system. One of the problems they had to contend with was a continuing push to religious governments - a sort of "majority dictatorship", because probably well over half the population leans religious, but voting politicians by this criteria will end democracy pretty quick. So Ataturk left the military as guardian dogs, with a more or less official mandate to bring down any overly Islamic governments and restore democracy. And it worked, for quite a long time. I'm not saying coups were nice, or civilized. I can easily take your word that they were brutal. I'm just saying they were part of the system, and when they stopped working the system failed.
  - kaanski 4y ago
    I would argue that the although the military like to paint themselves as guardians of democracy they don’t exactly have a great track record. The 1980 coup banned all political parties, all trade unions and the Kurdish language. They then “democratised” the country by only allowing parties that were junta approved, two of which were established directly by the junta themselves, to participate in elections. This is not to mention the hundreds of thousands of people arrested, hundreds of thousands denied passports, tens of thousands killed either directly, in custody or through capital punishment. Turkiye today does not have a “failed system” because there are no coups they have a system which is recovering from coups. I’m not an Islamist, I don’t support Erdogan. A large number of Turks don’t. But the paternalist idea that Turks are unable to govern themselves without violent takeovers and reprisals for the crime of voting for politicians they agree with is not good for the country and is not democratic. Edit “Dictatorship by majority” as you describe it is the definition of a democracy. The majority dictate the policy of the country. Unless my definition is wrong. Edit 2 Claiming coups “were a feature of their democratic system” is an oxymoron and something I’m almost shocked to hear in a non satirical sense. Until you can convince me that locusts are a feature for crops you won’t convince me that coups can be a feature of democracy.
cassepipe 4y ago
What are your sources on the coup being made-up ? I don't know much about it but it does seem credible given the turkish military coup history. Especially since traditionaly, the army has taken the side of the CHP, oppposing Erdogan.
zapfranklin 4y ago
As someone who spent a very long night in the middle of Beyoğlu during the coup (e.g., small arms fire, sonic booms that shattered windows, run on ATMs) and extremely tense weeks that followed (e.g., gangs of men patrolling the streets, shouting takbir, and threatening less conservative citizens), it certainly felt real. I personally think the truth lies not in either binary option, but somewhere in between. A political event can both be organic in nature and carefully exploited by and for the benefit of the other side.
Kukumber 4y ago
Made up coup? There was clear signs of both CIA/Mossad involvement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt#Allegations_of_CIA_involvement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...
- kingofpandora 4y ago
  Where? Seems like baseless accusations in regard to CIA and nothing implicates Mossad.
  - Kukumber 4y ago
    Follow the source, and do research on the different protagonists, it's quite obvious, it's quite similar with a recent event in Iran, there were legitimate protests against an evil regime, i don't deny that and i support the protests, Iranians deserve a better future and an independent sovereign revolution, but there were help from the west, one of them, France, got caught [1], they probably have been tortured and manipulated to lie, but their presence there is already suspicious It's similar to the position in Ukraine, officially Israel is not there, but when you dig through the propaganda, you find some gems [2] [1] - https://www.thelocal.fr/20221006/iran-state-tv-airs-alleged-confessions-of-two-detained-french-nationals/ https://www.thelocal.fr/20221006/iran-state-tv-airs-alleged-... [2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhXevYcytRc&t=30s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhXevYcytRc&t=30s I should conclude with: don't get me wrong, i support the mission and the goal, i just question the methods and i challenge the dogma
    - kingofpandora 4y ago
      I was hoping you had some evidence of Mossad or the CIA being involved in the coup in Turkey, but you don't, which is what I thought.
      - Kukumber 4y ago
        I'm not a CIA agent, why would i have secret and confidential information? Turkey's intelligence has, read the source