5 ms·

I own and operate a utility scale solar plant and i've always found it inefficient to spend 180k USD per MegaWatts for steel and aluminum structures to hold tho

by ush 4y ago

I own and operate a utility scale solar plant and i've always found it inefficient to spend 180k USD per MegaWatts for steel and aluminum structures to hold those panels. I've always dreamt of "my next plant will not have these steels" and my friends in the industry say it's impossible (like they all do say for new things). I hope this solution is a good one. The challenges are: 1) Snow: when it snows, inclination (22degrees in ours) helps snow blocks slide down usually in 2-3 days. when panels are completely flat, snow can stay on panels for weeks. how to solve that in large scale plants? 2) Natural vegetation that grows by itself: We deal with them with the help of sheep. They grow everywhere, under the panels, around the panels. As the panel covers 100% of the surface, no sunlight means no vegetation beneath? Is this for sure? Because there is no access to do any work beneath the panels after the installation. 3) Underground animals: Moles, mice (even snakes) etc live beneath the soil and they open holes to the surface and come up. Before, they could not access the panels because they are 1 meter up on the steel structure. Now they will have easy access to panels and cables. Will they cause harm? A snake sliding on the panels is ok? 4) Earth moves. After 5 years, some structures went deeper into the ground. I don't know if it's gonna cause a problem

ramraj07 4y ago
How does one get about starting a solar farm for commercial purposes? Do you have any guidelines or resources?
- ush 4y ago
  Hi. The most important step is permitting as it's a highly regulated industry. The rest is easier. Every jurisdiction has its own rules for permitting. Some govs want to push it more and make it easy (like Spain used to do it). Some don't need solar plants (like Switzerland). I heard Maryland in US is pushing it. I was planning to visit Maryland ministry of energy to learn more actually.
  - dbrgn 4y ago
    Why do you think Switzerland doesn't need solar plants? We're still in the middle of an energy crisis: While we have more than enough energy in spring and summer (lots of hydroelectric power plants), we don't have enough storage capacity to make it through winter with renewables alone. And plans to make an energy deal with the EU have failed so far. Alpine solar power plants are a huge deal right now, and cause a lot of discussions. They provide big benefits over solar on rooftops in the valley, because they are usually above the fogline and provide better efficiency during winter. This is the first alpine solar power plant that's fully operational since August: https://www.axpo.com/ch/en/about-us/energy-knowledge.detail.html/energy-knowledge/pioneer-project-in-the-swiss-alps.html https://www.axpo.com/ch/en/about-us/energy-knowledge.detail.... It's mounted on a dam and thus had less issues with permissions (as it's mounted on an already existing structure with existing power infrastructure). Here's an English article about two big planned projects in Gondo and Grengiols: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/mountaintop-solar-farms-spark-tensions-in-switzerland/47968044 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/mountaintop-solar-farms-spark-t...
    - ush 4y ago
      I had really wanted to setup a utility scale solar power plant in Switzerland and did some research and could not find a way to do it nor en example of it (except rooftop solar panels which is common). Switzerland is already energy independent (60% of electricity generation is hydro, 34% is nuclear). This is a great mix comparing to fossil sources in many countries. And mostly explains low inflation in the country I think.
    - panick21_ 4y ago
      For 20+ years I have wish we literally had just build one more nuclear plant, we could easily have done this and would be fine and independent by now. But sadly we have to investigate all these ideas instead of just going with a solution we know works and is literally just a matter of spending the money to solve the problem. Relaying on EU is just a terrible idea. I'm not necessarily against some things like these solar on a dam, but I wish we just look at the problem, picked a solution, took on the debt needed and comprehensively solved it in one project.
- ldbooth 4y ago
  The 2 biggest problems you'd want to solve for first are (a) who will buy the power("offtaker") and (b) where the solar project will be placed. If it's commercial, often it will be at the offtaker's location. There is a competitive industry competing for these customer already of course.
- meetingthrower 4y ago
  I own one of these too. Sounds like it might be similar location to ush, as I deal with snow, sheep, etc. I got mine during my windfall cash earning years in big corp. Great economics for a large W2 earner: 30% funding from gov, 30% funding from immediate depreciation, and you can lever the rest. Infinite IRR. There are a whole network of developers who package the deals and then match it with financing. I still can't believe every dentist in America doesn't own one of these....
vasco 4y ago
I don't operate one but back in university did some calculations around these and another factor is that efficiency goes down with rising temperatures. If the panels are all on the ground, during summer they will heat up and there won't be much air circulation beneath them to help cool them off. So efficiency will go down for sure, and I'm not sure the 20% one time savings will compensate a forever-less-efficient running operation. I guess it depends where in the world you install them, if more towards the north it might be ok.
- ush 4y ago
  this is a very good point. would be good to see data for a couple of years of production and compare vs. traditional system. it's most of the time better to spend upfront for ongoing production increase. If 5% loss during 25 years, 20% upfront saving might not look that good anymore for a plant that pays back in 7 years or so.
  - Temporary_31337 4y ago
    Consider the difference in borrowing costs now too. A 20% higher upfront cost means a 30% higher cost if you include financing over several years. So it will be good to see how the alternatives work out
  - neltnerb 4y ago
    The response of the company when the issues of heating, vegetation, snow, and rain is... I guess I am not impressed. > The expert added, “I’m also concerned about the lack of airflow around the module in this system design. Glass-glass modules provide a good moisture seal, but I suspect the back of the module will have very high humidity with no airflow. Damp-heat testing will be important. Not sure what other organic stuff could grow back there, like fungus or mold or things that get in the J-box,” referring to the junction box that houses the equipment that carries electricity from each panel. > Daniel Flanigan, chief marketing and product officer at Erthos, offered this response: “No developer is going to install an Erthos system without proper diligence and all of these issues…being resolved. Yet we are engaged in over a gigawatt of pipeline.” Okay, got it. So because people are paying for it people should pay for it. Everyone knows something no one knows. https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/solar/utility-scale-solar-has-stagnated-so-erthos-mounts-pv-panels-right-on-the-ground https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/solar/utility-scale-sol...
nubela 4y ago
Is there a way I can contact you personally? I am looking to start a solar plant business in Southeast Asia and would love to connect.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
KaiserPro 4y ago
how do you clean it? Sand and crap is going to blow across that and I don't see a practical way to get it off. I'm not sure those panels are rated for people walking across them, so robots? I can imagine that moss/algae is going to be a problem, as it start growing in the corners where all the dust gets trapped and is kept moist.
- slyall 4y ago
  They have a little robot that cleans it every night. Watch the video on their website. https://www.erthos.com/ https://www.erthos.com/
emeril 4y ago
Well, this is texas but who knows... It's def unclear but maybe, among other things, they poured some minimal concrete underneath in a matrix for earth movement (?) and some basic cooling/heat sink with it to address these issues at least nominally?
algo_trader 4y ago
1/ Would this effect the interest rate for the first couple of plants? 2/ Do you think there is a future for robot cleaner? Some new companies are already 90% down from recent SPACs.
blkhawk 4y ago
Thinking about it there aren't many things that are as cheap an durable as steel and aluminum. You surely know how the amount of energy you get out of the panels changes with inclination and just laying them flat is only feasible if you aren't concerned with that loss per unit of energy output or your plant sits on the equator. But in that case you can massively simplify the mounting system and raising the panels up would make maintenance from below easy. It doesn't feel like masonry or poured concrete walls will be a much cheaper substitute either. Wood might do in arid conditions with well behaved weather but you may pay in maintenance over time what you save at the start. I think a better approach is to improve the yield per unit with either better panels (split-cell bifacials currently seem to offer a nice bonus in yield just from back-reflected light) or some other thing you can do to improve overall profit per unit land. Of course there are situations land is so cheap it doesn't matter as a cost factor but after a point you would pay more in other infrastructure than you save again.
- strainer 4y ago
  Wooden structure is as durable as metal, it can rot if wet, but metal rusts if wet. Both can be painted, but its expensive and a bit polluting. Wood can be produced in systems vastly more friendly to environments than any current way to produce metal. Perhaps one day dropping it in from foundries in space might compete.
  - quickthrowman 4y ago
    > but metal rusts if wet. Aluminum does not rust, and galvanized steel will easily outlast a solar panel. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot-dip_galvanization https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot-dip_galvanization
    - lsaferite 4y ago
      > Aluminum does not rust While technically true, since rust is an iron oxide, the meaning behind the "metal rusts if wet" statement was more generic and less scientific. If you are a bit more forgiving in the interpretation of what was said, you could have acknowledge that aluminum does indeed oxidize over time. Aluminum just happens to have a nice property where the oxidation process creates a protective film that helps prevent further oxidation. Aluminum can be exposed to elements that destroy that film and result in accelerated oxidation. And if you want to see something extra fun, look at what mercury does to aluminum without that protective film.
sgt 4y ago
How about a modified approach that raises the solar panels. One could use wood poles with steel wires to suspend the panels. That way you could service from underneath and even manually wash from underneath (e.g. using a custom made roller that you swipe from underneath).
- qorrect 4y ago
  Like a floating dock ? Or a suspension bridge ? I like the idea , might be cheaper than all that steel.
gorbypark 4y ago
Are you an owner/operator at a “smaller” scale? I’ve always dreamed of starting a “DIY” commercial solar farm. I’ve recently moved to Spain from Canada and have been looking at the news of these flat installations recently. Seems pretty ideal for the climate here (no snow!), land is cheap and there’s no frost line to deal with. I was thinking that maybe it makes sense to have each corner of a panel on a concrete block to keep them up off the ground a bit and promote some air flow and keep the temperatures down. That might make it hard to walk on them to clean, though. But if I had some sort of Roomba like device to do the cleaning that might not be an issue…
pmontra 4y ago
Lay those panels flat on a slope? Of course you need a slope to start with. What does cost more, steel frames or digging the ground to create rows of triangle shaped embarkments /\/\/\ ?

by ush 4y ago

ramraj07 4y ago

How does one get about starting a solar farm for commercial purposes? Do you have any guidelines or resources?

ush 4y ago
Hi. The most important step is permitting as it's a highly regulated industry. The rest is easier. Every jurisdiction has its own rules for permitting. Some govs want to push it more and make it easy (like Spain used to do it). Some don't need solar plants (like Switzerland). I heard Maryland in US is pushing it. I was planning to visit Maryland ministry of energy to learn more actually.
- dbrgn 4y ago
  Why do you think Switzerland doesn't need solar plants? We're still in the middle of an energy crisis: While we have more than enough energy in spring and summer (lots of hydroelectric power plants), we don't have enough storage capacity to make it through winter with renewables alone. And plans to make an energy deal with the EU have failed so far. Alpine solar power plants are a huge deal right now, and cause a lot of discussions. They provide big benefits over solar on rooftops in the valley, because they are usually above the fogline and provide better efficiency during winter. This is the first alpine solar power plant that's fully operational since August: https://www.axpo.com/ch/en/about-us/energy-knowledge.detail.html/energy-knowledge/pioneer-project-in-the-swiss-alps.html https://www.axpo.com/ch/en/about-us/energy-knowledge.detail.... It's mounted on a dam and thus had less issues with permissions (as it's mounted on an already existing structure with existing power infrastructure). Here's an English article about two big planned projects in Gondo and Grengiols: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/mountaintop-solar-farms-spark-tensions-in-switzerland/47968044 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/mountaintop-solar-farms-spark-t...
  - ush 4y ago
    I had really wanted to setup a utility scale solar power plant in Switzerland and did some research and could not find a way to do it nor en example of it (except rooftop solar panels which is common). Switzerland is already energy independent (60% of electricity generation is hydro, 34% is nuclear). This is a great mix comparing to fossil sources in many countries. And mostly explains low inflation in the country I think.
  - panick21_ 4y ago
    For 20+ years I have wish we literally had just build one more nuclear plant, we could easily have done this and would be fine and independent by now. But sadly we have to investigate all these ideas instead of just going with a solution we know works and is literally just a matter of spending the money to solve the problem. Relaying on EU is just a terrible idea. I'm not necessarily against some things like these solar on a dam, but I wish we just look at the problem, picked a solution, took on the debt needed and comprehensively solved it in one project.
ldbooth 4y ago
The 2 biggest problems you'd want to solve for first are (a) who will buy the power("offtaker") and (b) where the solar project will be placed. If it's commercial, often it will be at the offtaker's location. There is a competitive industry competing for these customer already of course.
meetingthrower 4y ago
I own one of these too. Sounds like it might be similar location to ush, as I deal with snow, sheep, etc. I got mine during my windfall cash earning years in big corp. Great economics for a large W2 earner: 30% funding from gov, 30% funding from immediate depreciation, and you can lever the rest. Infinite IRR. There are a whole network of developers who package the deals and then match it with financing. I still can't believe every dentist in America doesn't own one of these....

vasco 4y ago

I don't operate one but back in university did some calculations around these and another factor is that efficiency goes down with rising temperatures. If the panels are all on the ground, during summer they will heat up and there won't be much air circulation beneath them to help cool them off. So efficiency will go down for sure, and I'm not sure the 20% one time savings will compensate a forever-less-efficient running operation. I guess it depends where in the world you install them, if more towards the north it might be ok.

ush 4y ago
this is a very good point. would be good to see data for a couple of years of production and compare vs. traditional system. it's most of the time better to spend upfront for ongoing production increase. If 5% loss during 25 years, 20% upfront saving might not look that good anymore for a plant that pays back in 7 years or so.
- Temporary_31337 4y ago
  Consider the difference in borrowing costs now too. A 20% higher upfront cost means a 30% higher cost if you include financing over several years. So it will be good to see how the alternatives work out
- neltnerb 4y ago
  The response of the company when the issues of heating, vegetation, snow, and rain is... I guess I am not impressed. > The expert added, “I’m also concerned about the lack of airflow around the module in this system design. Glass-glass modules provide a good moisture seal, but I suspect the back of the module will have very high humidity with no airflow. Damp-heat testing will be important. Not sure what other organic stuff could grow back there, like fungus or mold or things that get in the J-box,” referring to the junction box that houses the equipment that carries electricity from each panel. > Daniel Flanigan, chief marketing and product officer at Erthos, offered this response: “No developer is going to install an Erthos system without proper diligence and all of these issues…being resolved. Yet we are engaged in over a gigawatt of pipeline.” Okay, got it. So because people are paying for it people should pay for it. Everyone knows something no one knows. https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/solar/utility-scale-solar-has-stagnated-so-erthos-mounts-pv-panels-right-on-the-ground https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/solar/utility-scale-sol...

nubela 4y ago

Is there a way I can contact you personally? I am looking to start a solar plant business in Southeast Asia and would love to connect.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

KaiserPro 4y ago

how do you clean it? Sand and crap is going to blow across that and I don't see a practical way to get it off. I'm not sure those panels are rated for people walking across them, so robots? I can imagine that moss/algae is going to be a problem, as it start growing in the corners where all the dust gets trapped and is kept moist.

slyall 4y ago
They have a little robot that cleans it every night. Watch the video on their website. https://www.erthos.com/ https://www.erthos.com/

emeril 4y ago

Well, this is texas but who knows... It's def unclear but maybe, among other things, they poured some minimal concrete underneath in a matrix for earth movement (?) and some basic cooling/heat sink with it to address these issues at least nominally?

algo_trader 4y ago

1/ Would this effect the interest rate for the first couple of plants? 2/ Do you think there is a future for robot cleaner? Some new companies are already 90% down from recent SPACs.

blkhawk 4y ago

Thinking about it there aren't many things that are as cheap an durable as steel and aluminum. You surely know how the amount of energy you get out of the panels changes with inclination and just laying them flat is only feasible if you aren't concerned with that loss per unit of energy output or your plant sits on the equator. But in that case you can massively simplify the mounting system and raising the panels up would make maintenance from below easy. It doesn't feel like masonry or poured concrete walls will be a much cheaper substitute either. Wood might do in arid conditions with well behaved weather but you may pay in maintenance over time what you save at the start. I think a better approach is to improve the yield per unit with either better panels (split-cell bifacials currently seem to offer a nice bonus in yield just from back-reflected light) or some other thing you can do to improve overall profit per unit land. Of course there are situations land is so cheap it doesn't matter as a cost factor but after a point you would pay more in other infrastructure than you save again.

strainer 4y ago
Wooden structure is as durable as metal, it can rot if wet, but metal rusts if wet. Both can be painted, but its expensive and a bit polluting. Wood can be produced in systems vastly more friendly to environments than any current way to produce metal. Perhaps one day dropping it in from foundries in space might compete.
- quickthrowman 4y ago
  > but metal rusts if wet. Aluminum does not rust, and galvanized steel will easily outlast a solar panel. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot-dip_galvanization https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot-dip_galvanization
  - lsaferite 4y ago
    > Aluminum does not rust While technically true, since rust is an iron oxide, the meaning behind the "metal rusts if wet" statement was more generic and less scientific. If you are a bit more forgiving in the interpretation of what was said, you could have acknowledge that aluminum does indeed oxidize over time. Aluminum just happens to have a nice property where the oxidation process creates a protective film that helps prevent further oxidation. Aluminum can be exposed to elements that destroy that film and result in accelerated oxidation. And if you want to see something extra fun, look at what mercury does to aluminum without that protective film.

sgt 4y ago

How about a modified approach that raises the solar panels. One could use wood poles with steel wires to suspend the panels. That way you could service from underneath and even manually wash from underneath (e.g. using a custom made roller that you swipe from underneath).

qorrect 4y ago
Like a floating dock ? Or a suspension bridge ? I like the idea , might be cheaper than all that steel.

gorbypark 4y ago

Are you an owner/operator at a “smaller” scale? I’ve always dreamed of starting a “DIY” commercial solar farm. I’ve recently moved to Spain from Canada and have been looking at the news of these flat installations recently. Seems pretty ideal for the climate here (no snow!), land is cheap and there’s no frost line to deal with. I was thinking that maybe it makes sense to have each corner of a panel on a concrete block to keep them up off the ground a bit and promote some air flow and keep the temperatures down. That might make it hard to walk on them to clean, though. But if I had some sort of Roomba like device to do the cleaning that might not be an issue…

pmontra 4y ago

Lay those panels flat on a slope? Of course you need a slope to start with. What does cost more, steel frames or digging the ground to create rows of triangle shaped embarkments /\/\/\ ?