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Interested to see if they can successfully pivot to full SaaS. It seems like with the recent AWS announcement of CodeCatalyst and Github CodeSpaces (both of whi

Interested to see if they can successfully pivot to full SaaS. It seems like with the recent AWS announcement of CodeCatalyst and Github CodeSpaces (both of which are free with an additional easy to use paid model), Gitpod has been backed into a corner. I hope they do well, but the odds are stacked against them as the enterprise selling machines that are Amazon and Microsoft are incredibly difficult to fight as a startup. With Gitlab also apparently working on their version of CodeSpaces, it seems like maybe the best position for Gitpod is an acquisition (possibly by Atlassian).

ghuntley 4y ago
> It seems like with the recent AWS announcement of CodeCatalyst I took Code Catalyst for a spin the other day and it is terrible. https://twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/1599773293128863744 https://twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/15997732931288637... > It seems like maybe the best position for Gitpod is an acquisition (possibly by Atlassian) I agree. I used to work there and think they need to slash circa 40 employees to shrink down to more sustainable burn rate numbers - https://ghuntley.com/tea https://ghuntley.com/tea > but the odds are stacked against them In more ways then one https://ghuntley.com/fracture https://ghuntley.com/fracture documents Microsoft's strategy with Visual Studio Code which means 6 out of 10 top programming languages integrations only work on GitHub Codepaces. If you want .NET, C++, C, Python or Jupyter then the LSP integrations cannot be legally used on Gitpod. GitHub Codespaces got one thing right - they chose IaaS as the brick of compute meaning they can do GPUs and run Kubernetes clusters. On Gitpod, you can't because Gitpod chose Kubernetes as the compute abstraction. Gitpod needs to ditch Kubernetes... https://github.com/gitpod-io/gitpod/issues/4889 https://github.com/gitpod-io/gitpod/issues/4889 and https://github.com/gitpod-io/gitpod/issues/10650 https://github.com/gitpod-io/gitpod/issues/10650
- mmq 4y ago
  How is Coder going to compete against GH/MSFT?
  - ghuntley 4y ago
    Hmm. We find that GH/MSFT customers come to us (especially Microsoft Azure DevOps customers which have been abandoned) and GH is categorically providing non-answers of "we are investigating offering on-prem" but they have done that for a long time now - ie. a classic sales tactic to keep MSFT aligned people hopeful vs saying no. Microsoft has been retiring on-prem products as a business strategy for over 12 years now. Why would GitHub be the snowflake exception? Somewhere, in some CVP's mind GitHub ES is already EOL (look at GitHub.com/enterprise they are already muddling the meaning of "enterprise") If you look at /.codespaces/bin or /workspaces/.codespaces/shared on GitHub Codespaces you'll understand how tightly coupled GitHub Codespaces is to Microsoft Azure thus on-prem isn't going to happen. The likely path they could do it would be like JetBrains Spaces does it "configure in our IAM/ARM key and we will provision Azure/AWS virtual machines" via GitHub Enterprise Server. $ ghuntley /workspaces/.codespaces/shared $ grep sku * environment-variables.json: "skuName": "Standard_F2s_v2", If you want further information check out https://coder.com/blog/github-codespaces-coder-and-enterprise-customers https://coder.com/blog/github-codespaces-coder-and-enterpris...
    - naikrovek 4y ago
      MS have a VS code server which is in private preview now. it's very much like a self-hosted Codespace if you squint and write a tiny bit of automation around it. license forbids using it to host a service for others, but you can host it for yourself.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- pas 4y ago
  > the LSP integrations cannot be legally used on Gitpod. Can the user install them? How complicated these are? Is there some awareness about this in OSS communities? If yes, is there some kind of consensus? (Is it something like: okay, then each programming language project needs to provide its LSP, like Rust has rust-analyzer, Scala has Metals, etc..?)
  - ghuntley 4y ago
    > Can the user install them? Doing so is not legal. Here's the standard boiler plate license for the LSPs > You may install and use any number of copies of the software only with Microsoft Visual Studio, Visual Studio for Mac, Visual Studio Code, Azure DevOps, Team Foundation Server, and successor Microsoft products and services to develop and test your applications https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items/ms-vscode.cpptools/license https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items/ms-vscode.cpptool... The key here is VSCode (MIT) is NOT Microsoft Visual Studio (the product) and only the product can use the LSP's, tools such as GitHub Copilot or the Visual Studio Marketplace Ecosystem. > Is there some awareness about this in OSS communities? Yup https://github.com/search?q=repo%3AVSCodium%2Fvscodium+pylance&type=issues https://github.com/search?q=repo%3AVSCodium%2Fvscodium+pylan... https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/issues/1020#issue-1180219275 https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/issues/1020#issue-11802... > is there some kind of consensus? (Is it something like: okay, then each programming language project needs to provide its LSP, like Rust has rust-analyzer, Scala has Metals, etc..?) The consensus is that programming languages need to author their own LSP integrations and not allow Microsoft to build it. It's why rust-analyzer, go, metals are self-developed by their communities. Again https://ghuntley.com/fracture https://ghuntley.com/fracture recaps the problems w/VScode and how Microsoft is building a GitHub 365 vision through VSCode.
    - pas 4y ago
      The actual repo seems MIT though https://github.com/microsoft/vscode-cpptools/blob/main/LICENSE.md https://github.com/microsoft/vscode-cpptools/blob/main/LICEN... ... what is missing from this?
jlandgraf 4y ago
CEO of Gitpod here - we just announced a $25m Series A last month (https://www.gitpod.io/blog/future-of-software-cdes https://www.gitpod.io/blog/future-of-software-cdes), so not looking to get acquired anytime soon ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ On the market landscape: the whole market around CDEs (https://www.gitpod.io/cde https://www.gitpod.io/cde) is in its infancy. Our largest competition is local development. We believe that unlike for other creative workflows the convenience threshold for development in the cloud has not (yet) been crossed. We are moving away from self hosted to execute faster on what we always wanted: from history-dependent cobbled local development environments to consistently reproducible, instant, ephemeral Cloud Development Environments (CDEs). You can think of CDEs (https://www.gitpod.io/cde https://www.gitpod.io/cde) as our product north star. Other links: - How Redmonk looks at the market https://redmonk.com/jgovernor/2022/12/01/the-year-of-the-cloud-development-environment/ https://redmonk.com/jgovernor/2022/12/01/the-year-of-the-clo... - Kent Beck https://medium.com/@kentbeck_7670/cloud-development-environments-tame-complexity-by-reducing-state-4a154ea7959f https://medium.com/@kentbeck_7670/cloud-development-environm... (full disclosure: Kent invested in the meantime into the company)
jlengrand 4y ago
in my dreams they get acquired by Jetbrains :D
- ghuntley 4y ago
  me too then the stock in Gitpod that I own might become liquid :)

ghuntley 4y ago

> It seems like with the recent AWS announcement of CodeCatalyst I took Code Catalyst for a spin the other day and it is terrible. https://twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/1599773293128863744 https://twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/15997732931288637... > It seems like maybe the best position for Gitpod is an acquisition (possibly by Atlassian) I agree. I used to work there and think they need to slash circa 40 employees to shrink down to more sustainable burn rate numbers - https://ghuntley.com/tea https://ghuntley.com/tea > but the odds are stacked against them In more ways then one https://ghuntley.com/fracture https://ghuntley.com/fracture documents Microsoft's strategy with Visual Studio Code which means 6 out of 10 top programming languages integrations only work on GitHub Codepaces. If you want .NET, C++, C, Python or Jupyter then the LSP integrations cannot be legally used on Gitpod. GitHub Codespaces got one thing right - they chose IaaS as the brick of compute meaning they can do GPUs and run Kubernetes clusters. On Gitpod, you can't because Gitpod chose Kubernetes as the compute abstraction. Gitpod needs to ditch Kubernetes... https://github.com/gitpod-io/gitpod/issues/4889 https://github.com/gitpod-io/gitpod/issues/4889 and https://github.com/gitpod-io/gitpod/issues/10650 https://github.com/gitpod-io/gitpod/issues/10650

mmq 4y ago
How is Coder going to compete against GH/MSFT?
- ghuntley 4y ago
  Hmm. We find that GH/MSFT customers come to us (especially Microsoft Azure DevOps customers which have been abandoned) and GH is categorically providing non-answers of "we are investigating offering on-prem" but they have done that for a long time now - ie. a classic sales tactic to keep MSFT aligned people hopeful vs saying no. Microsoft has been retiring on-prem products as a business strategy for over 12 years now. Why would GitHub be the snowflake exception? Somewhere, in some CVP's mind GitHub ES is already EOL (look at GitHub.com/enterprise they are already muddling the meaning of "enterprise") If you look at /.codespaces/bin or /workspaces/.codespaces/shared on GitHub Codespaces you'll understand how tightly coupled GitHub Codespaces is to Microsoft Azure thus on-prem isn't going to happen. The likely path they could do it would be like JetBrains Spaces does it "configure in our IAM/ARM key and we will provision Azure/AWS virtual machines" via GitHub Enterprise Server. $ ghuntley /workspaces/.codespaces/shared $ grep sku * environment-variables.json: "skuName": "Standard_F2s_v2", If you want further information check out https://coder.com/blog/github-codespaces-coder-and-enterprise-customers https://coder.com/blog/github-codespaces-coder-and-enterpris...
  - naikrovek 4y ago
    MS have a VS code server which is in private preview now. it's very much like a self-hosted Codespace if you squint and write a tiny bit of automation around it. license forbids using it to host a service for others, but you can host it for yourself.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
pas 4y ago
> the LSP integrations cannot be legally used on Gitpod. Can the user install them? How complicated these are? Is there some awareness about this in OSS communities? If yes, is there some kind of consensus? (Is it something like: okay, then each programming language project needs to provide its LSP, like Rust has rust-analyzer, Scala has Metals, etc..?)
- ghuntley 4y ago
  > Can the user install them? Doing so is not legal. Here's the standard boiler plate license for the LSPs > You may install and use any number of copies of the software only with Microsoft Visual Studio, Visual Studio for Mac, Visual Studio Code, Azure DevOps, Team Foundation Server, and successor Microsoft products and services to develop and test your applications https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items/ms-vscode.cpptools/license https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items/ms-vscode.cpptool... The key here is VSCode (MIT) is NOT Microsoft Visual Studio (the product) and only the product can use the LSP's, tools such as GitHub Copilot or the Visual Studio Marketplace Ecosystem. > Is there some awareness about this in OSS communities? Yup https://github.com/search?q=repo%3AVSCodium%2Fvscodium+pylance&type=issues https://github.com/search?q=repo%3AVSCodium%2Fvscodium+pylan... https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/issues/1020#issue-1180219275 https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/issues/1020#issue-11802... > is there some kind of consensus? (Is it something like: okay, then each programming language project needs to provide its LSP, like Rust has rust-analyzer, Scala has Metals, etc..?) The consensus is that programming languages need to author their own LSP integrations and not allow Microsoft to build it. It's why rust-analyzer, go, metals are self-developed by their communities. Again https://ghuntley.com/fracture https://ghuntley.com/fracture recaps the problems w/VScode and how Microsoft is building a GitHub 365 vision through VSCode.
  - pas 4y ago
    The actual repo seems MIT though https://github.com/microsoft/vscode-cpptools/blob/main/LICENSE.md https://github.com/microsoft/vscode-cpptools/blob/main/LICEN... ... what is missing from this?

jlandgraf 4y ago

CEO of Gitpod here - we just announced a $25m Series A last month (https://www.gitpod.io/blog/future-of-software-cdes https://www.gitpod.io/blog/future-of-software-cdes), so not looking to get acquired anytime soon ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ On the market landscape: the whole market around CDEs (https://www.gitpod.io/cde https://www.gitpod.io/cde) is in its infancy. Our largest competition is local development. We believe that unlike for other creative workflows the convenience threshold for development in the cloud has not (yet) been crossed. We are moving away from self hosted to execute faster on what we always wanted: from history-dependent cobbled local development environments to consistently reproducible, instant, ephemeral Cloud Development Environments (CDEs). You can think of CDEs (https://www.gitpod.io/cde https://www.gitpod.io/cde) as our product north star. Other links: - How Redmonk looks at the market https://redmonk.com/jgovernor/2022/12/01/the-year-of-the-cloud-development-environment/ https://redmonk.com/jgovernor/2022/12/01/the-year-of-the-clo... - Kent Beck https://medium.com/@kentbeck_7670/cloud-development-environments-tame-complexity-by-reducing-state-4a154ea7959f https://medium.com/@kentbeck_7670/cloud-development-environm... (full disclosure: Kent invested in the meantime into the company)

jlengrand 4y ago

in my dreams they get acquired by Jetbrains :D

ghuntley 4y ago
me too then the stock in Gitpod that I own might become liquid :)