7 ms·

No Hello: A New Wave

41 points by Exorust 4y ago

panki27 4y ago
So this is a direct copy of https://www.nohello.com/ https://www.nohello.com/ ?
- gryfft 4y ago
  It also includes some additional wording about modern phone etiquette.
- neogodless 4y ago
  https://github.com/sbmueller/nohello https://github.com/sbmueller/nohello > This website was inspired by the original at nohello.com. Acknowledgements go to the original anonymous author. I felt an urge to modernize this gem with a more suitable layout, https connection and open-sourced code.
  - vultour 4y ago
    But that's what https://nohello.net https://nohello.net already is
- sam_goody 4y ago
  I would have closed nohello.com without reading. I don't have time to wait for their fancy scroller at the top of the page before getting to the punch. A page with so many sections, you have to read it all to know what the point is. The OP realizes that you should not waste time on a fancy hello, but get straight to the message. ;)
lunarplague 4y ago
I've seen these for years, and I've sent it to people who needed it, but as I get older and learn more emotional intelligence, I'm starting to consider the reality is some people just want to build relationships at work because of how terribly difficult it is to make friends as an adult. Also, depending on your job, you may have to accept that some jobs require you to be malleable to having wrenches thrown into your flow state. It feels like people expect life to always have their boundaries in mind, but none of us are the main character here.
- lupire 4y ago
  You can be sociable in chat without awkward asynchronous hellos. Just say your sociable message in the first line. And you can throw a necessary wrench at someone without prefacing it with an unnecessary extra wrench. Bundle the two wrenches together.
- gardenhedge 4y ago
  Pro tip - continue the casual conversation after the initial question. For a few reasons: * If you do the social chat and then ask the question it really feels like you're buttering the person up and not being genuine. * If you do the casual chat after, it allows the person responding more freedom of when to reply. E.g. they know the important work stuff is out of the way and now it can be a slower casual chat.
gyulai 4y ago
I disagree. I start text chats with "hello" all the time. It basically relates to channel choice. For some kinds of messages a near-real-time text chat is the right channel but async email-like flow would be entirely the wrong channel. So I start a convo with "hello" to probe if the other party is available for near-real-time text chat, because away-status indicators are frequently unreliable. There are also special kinds of communication needs like if I need help with something and there are 3 people who could potentially help me out on something that's a blocker for me. I then just want to probe for the first person capable of unblocking me. The protocol is then something like: "me-to-person-a: hello". wait for 5 minutes. no respone. "me-to-person-b: hello". wait for 5 minutes. no response. "me-to-person-c: hello" wait for 5 minutes. all of a sudden person b has become available and replies "person-b-to-me: hello, what can i do for you?" ...now i start chatting with person b. meanwhile, 20 minutes after my initial prompt when I'm already well into my way, discussing my blocker with person b, person c comes online and says "hello". I respond "oh, never mind: person b is already helping me out". ...person a, as it happens, is fighting a production issue and not responding to me right now, knowing that i'm a newbie developer who likely has newbie questions. fair enough, he's entirely within his rights to ignore me. If instead, I just open the convo with a drawn-out description of the issue i need help with, I'm kind of stuck after firing off a message to the first person. Because now, I don't want to start wasting another person's time by "cross-posting" to a second 1-on-1 chat, as that is likely to duplicate work. In that case, to be polite, I'd have to at least wait a few hours, cross-post to a second person, and then say to the first person something like "oh, it seems like you're unavailable. actually never mind, I guess person-b might be able to help me out faster". ...this latter kind of communication is kind of awkward, and in any case inefficient.
- gryfft 4y ago
  I think you're still missing the point that the question isn't about what kind of conversation the initiator is ready and willing to have, but rather about the information asymmetry and time/emotional costs imposed on the recipient. When you open a conversation with "Hello," *you* know generally what you want to have a conversation about and that this is a good time for you to have it. The recipient receives only the notification that you would like to talk about something and is left to imagine what that might be as you type, or wait for a reply to begin typing. Beginning a text chat with "Hello, I have a few questions about xyz and was wondering if now would be a good time to talk?" is considerate of the other party's time and attention, and it does not cost you anything but seconds to provide this context up front. Edit: you edited and lengthened your comment. > The protocol is then something like: "me-to-person-a: hello". wait for 5 minutes. no respone. "me-to-person-b: hello". wait for 5 minutes. no response. "me-to-person-c: hello" I'm sorry, this is _insane_! That's 10 minutes to send out 3 words of communication, and the people who don't get back to you right away will now be getting back to you later to clarify, further worsening your signal to noise ratio! You could have spent 20 _seconds_ composing the first message with a one sentence synopsis. "Don't worry, no one is dead" or "The factory is on fire" are useful to know up front. You could copy and paste it to the next two people if they don't get back to you.
ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
I've got a similar issue with people emailing IT to ask if they should raise a ticket - just raise the ticket and if it's the wrong place to ask a question then you'll get a response telling you that. Instead we get email question->response: raise a ticket->ticket raised->actual response to question It's especially annoying as our ticket system can just be emailed, so the original email question could just include the ticket system as well which would enable us to answer it and not waste attention and time for both us and them.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
mkl95 4y ago
I follow a simple rule. If I'm looking for a written conversation, I say hello followed by whatever I want to say next in the same message. If I want to call someone, I say hello and ask them if they are available in the same message. I avoid situations in between because they are usually highly entropic and confusing. And sending a single message works, so there's no need to fix it.
- lupire 4y ago
  You can do better. "hello, are you available?" creates false urgency and stress. Use "Hello, not urgent, please ping me when your are a available for a live chat. I have a complicated question about $topic."
  - mkl95 4y ago
    Thanks, I will be applying that.
- mfrw 4y ago
  I do start with a Hello, followed by whatever I have to say in the same message. In addition I also annotate with an `<async>`/`<urgent>` at the end as appropriate. It has seemed to work for me.
jameschensmith 4y ago
I tend to share https://nohello.net/ https://nohello.net/. It may be newer, but it's also open source, is available in multiple languages, emphasizes asynchronous communication [1][2], and uses _The Office_ as its setting which makes sharing it a bit more lighthearted. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asynchronous_communication#Electronically_mediated_communication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asynchronous_communication#Ele... [2]: https://async.twist.com/asynchronous-communication/ https://async.twist.com/asynchronous-communication/
bambataa 4y ago
I’ve seen colleagues share this or link to it in their Slack status. It feels a bit… odd to me. Yeah it’s maybe a bit annoying when people do this, but does it really need a whole campaign website? Not everyone is going to communicate in exactly the way you like.
- jim-jim-jim 4y ago
  It's needlessly prickly and reinforces the Comic Book Guy image that normal people have of programmers.
- lo_zamoyski 4y ago
  Yeah, it is suggestive of "first-world problems" and a bizarrely rigid personality (and a lack of a sense of humor). (According to the "About" page, the author is "specialized in software engineering and digital signal processing". Perhaps a case of déformation professionnelle?)
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- rgoulter 4y ago
  > Not everyone is going to communicate in exactly the way you like. Sure, but do you put these differences down to individuality, or to culture? If someone messages "hello", is this just social, is it that the person is blocked and cannot do anything, or is it a request for help where the person will probably be able to solve the problem (but would be quicker with help)? Mismatches in cultural expectations lead to friction/conflict. I think it's generally going to be better to be aware of what the different expectations are.
gardenhedge 4y ago
My coworkers have it down to a tee (the wrong way that is): Co-worker: hello Me: Hi, what's up? Co-worker: got 5 mins? Me: Sure Co-worker: rings me to ask a question that could have been a single chat message In isolation, this would be fine but this can happen multiple times a day.
- JackFr 4y ago
  I used to be infuriated with colleagues who felt the need to preface questions with “Question…” and then ask the question. Just ask the damned question. I should be able to figure out that it’s a question. Now I am more patient.
  - jcelerier 4y ago
    It's not about the question, it's about the interaction. I scream internally everytime I get messages without "hello" on a new day, to me this is so rude
- michaelsalim 4y ago
  I had a similar experience with one coworker that almost drove me nuts Co-worker: Hello Me: Hey, what's up? Co-worker: Do you have a minute? Me: Sure Co-worker: Can I ask you a question? Me: Yeah, what is it? Co-worker: Actually, it's a bit hard to explain, can we can on a call? Me: (screaming internally)
jkukul 4y ago
I'm always annoyed by "hello" messages. I once got to a point where I almost started creating a Slack bot that automatically replies with a "Hello" to such hello messages. In the end I never got to implement it but I still think that it is the right way to make the problem go away. For now, I just settled on being more patient and stoic about the "Hello" kind of people and to lead by example and not do it myself.
newbieuser 4y ago
people who are obsessed with this subject usually have poor communication skills.
- mberning 4y ago
  Usually the biggest office asshole and last person you want to talk to for anything. The living embodiment of Nick Burns. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=25J3u3P-HHg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=25J3u3P-HHg
jbergstroem 4y ago
When these types of conversations come up, I prefer the phrase “optimize for the receiver” - thinking on how to best be understood versus what is easiest/most convenient for the sender (in the hello case: requiring someone’s attention).
LAC-Tech 4y ago
This seems to stress a lot of people out. But doesn't stress me out at all. After a bit of thought, I think it's because I turn off notifications for all slack/email type stuff at work. Instead I just habitually check them. If someone really urgently needs me, I'm sure they'll call.
mberning 4y ago
Imagine being this triggered because somebody opened their conversation with “Hello”. In my experience not many people will simply leave it at “Hello” for more than a few minutes. At which point you can respond to their question. And if they never provide more details then the problem solved itself.
prepend 4y ago
Wouldn’t it be nice if everyone just wrote letters? I suspect the author is annoyed when the cashier says “hello, how are you?” before they start ringing them up. This is just culture. Being upset about it is an inefficient waste of energy. I think people frequently say hello to ease people into their request. To note that we’re all human and more than just doing jobs. Also to prove and see if you’re there and available for an interruption. If you don’t respond to “hello,” then perhaps instead of messaging they will call or email or wait. If they wanted async, they would just email.
jemmyw 4y ago
I used to do the nohello thing but since seeing this popup a few years ago I switched back to hello to be annoying. I've got an instinctive reaction whenever I'm told what to do to try doing the opposite.

41 points by Exorust 4y ago

panki27 4y ago

So this is a direct copy of https://www.nohello.com/ https://www.nohello.com/ ?

gryfft 4y ago
It also includes some additional wording about modern phone etiquette.
neogodless 4y ago
https://github.com/sbmueller/nohello https://github.com/sbmueller/nohello > This website was inspired by the original at nohello.com. Acknowledgements go to the original anonymous author. I felt an urge to modernize this gem with a more suitable layout, https connection and open-sourced code.
- vultour 4y ago
  But that's what https://nohello.net https://nohello.net already is
sam_goody 4y ago
I would have closed nohello.com without reading. I don't have time to wait for their fancy scroller at the top of the page before getting to the punch. A page with so many sections, you have to read it all to know what the point is. The OP realizes that you should not waste time on a fancy hello, but get straight to the message. ;)

lunarplague 4y ago

I've seen these for years, and I've sent it to people who needed it, but as I get older and learn more emotional intelligence, I'm starting to consider the reality is some people just want to build relationships at work because of how terribly difficult it is to make friends as an adult. Also, depending on your job, you may have to accept that some jobs require you to be malleable to having wrenches thrown into your flow state. It feels like people expect life to always have their boundaries in mind, but none of us are the main character here.

lupire 4y ago
You can be sociable in chat without awkward asynchronous hellos. Just say your sociable message in the first line. And you can throw a necessary wrench at someone without prefacing it with an unnecessary extra wrench. Bundle the two wrenches together.
gardenhedge 4y ago
Pro tip - continue the casual conversation after the initial question. For a few reasons: * If you do the social chat and then ask the question it really feels like you're buttering the person up and not being genuine. * If you do the casual chat after, it allows the person responding more freedom of when to reply. E.g. they know the important work stuff is out of the way and now it can be a slower casual chat.

gyulai 4y ago

I disagree. I start text chats with "hello" all the time. It basically relates to channel choice. For some kinds of messages a near-real-time text chat is the right channel but async email-like flow would be entirely the wrong channel. So I start a convo with "hello" to probe if the other party is available for near-real-time text chat, because away-status indicators are frequently unreliable. There are also special kinds of communication needs like if I need help with something and there are 3 people who could potentially help me out on something that's a blocker for me. I then just want to probe for the first person capable of unblocking me. The protocol is then something like: "me-to-person-a: hello". wait for 5 minutes. no respone. "me-to-person-b: hello". wait for 5 minutes. no response. "me-to-person-c: hello" wait for 5 minutes. all of a sudden person b has become available and replies "person-b-to-me: hello, what can i do for you?" ...now i start chatting with person b. meanwhile, 20 minutes after my initial prompt when I'm already well into my way, discussing my blocker with person b, person c comes online and says "hello". I respond "oh, never mind: person b is already helping me out". ...person a, as it happens, is fighting a production issue and not responding to me right now, knowing that i'm a newbie developer who likely has newbie questions. fair enough, he's entirely within his rights to ignore me. If instead, I just open the convo with a drawn-out description of the issue i need help with, I'm kind of stuck after firing off a message to the first person. Because now, I don't want to start wasting another person's time by "cross-posting" to a second 1-on-1 chat, as that is likely to duplicate work. In that case, to be polite, I'd have to at least wait a few hours, cross-post to a second person, and then say to the first person something like "oh, it seems like you're unavailable. actually never mind, I guess person-b might be able to help me out faster". ...this latter kind of communication is kind of awkward, and in any case inefficient.

gryfft 4y ago
I think you're still missing the point that the question isn't about what kind of conversation the initiator is ready and willing to have, but rather about the information asymmetry and time/emotional costs imposed on the recipient. When you open a conversation with "Hello," *you* know generally what you want to have a conversation about and that this is a good time for you to have it. The recipient receives only the notification that you would like to talk about something and is left to imagine what that might be as you type, or wait for a reply to begin typing. Beginning a text chat with "Hello, I have a few questions about xyz and was wondering if now would be a good time to talk?" is considerate of the other party's time and attention, and it does not cost you anything but seconds to provide this context up front. Edit: you edited and lengthened your comment. > The protocol is then something like: "me-to-person-a: hello". wait for 5 minutes. no respone. "me-to-person-b: hello". wait for 5 minutes. no response. "me-to-person-c: hello" I'm sorry, this is _insane_! That's 10 minutes to send out 3 words of communication, and the people who don't get back to you right away will now be getting back to you later to clarify, further worsening your signal to noise ratio! You could have spent 20 _seconds_ composing the first message with a one sentence synopsis. "Don't worry, no one is dead" or "The factory is on fire" are useful to know up front. You could copy and paste it to the next two people if they don't get back to you.

ndsipa_pomu 4y ago

I've got a similar issue with people emailing IT to ask if they should raise a ticket - just raise the ticket and if it's the wrong place to ask a question then you'll get a response telling you that. Instead we get email question->response: raise a ticket->ticket raised->actual response to question It's especially annoying as our ticket system can just be emailed, so the original email question could just include the ticket system as well which would enable us to answer it and not waste attention and time for both us and them.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

mkl95 4y ago

I follow a simple rule. If I'm looking for a written conversation, I say hello followed by whatever I want to say next in the same message. If I want to call someone, I say hello and ask them if they are available in the same message. I avoid situations in between because they are usually highly entropic and confusing. And sending a single message works, so there's no need to fix it.

lupire 4y ago
You can do better. "hello, are you available?" creates false urgency and stress. Use "Hello, not urgent, please ping me when your are a available for a live chat. I have a complicated question about $topic."
- mkl95 4y ago
  Thanks, I will be applying that.
mfrw 4y ago
I do start with a Hello, followed by whatever I have to say in the same message. In addition I also annotate with an `<async>`/`<urgent>` at the end as appropriate. It has seemed to work for me.

jameschensmith 4y ago

I tend to share https://nohello.net/ https://nohello.net/. It may be newer, but it's also open source, is available in multiple languages, emphasizes asynchronous communication [1][2], and uses _The Office_ as its setting which makes sharing it a bit more lighthearted. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asynchronous_communication#Electronically_mediated_communication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asynchronous_communication#Ele... [2]: https://async.twist.com/asynchronous-communication/ https://async.twist.com/asynchronous-communication/

bambataa 4y ago

I’ve seen colleagues share this or link to it in their Slack status. It feels a bit… odd to me. Yeah it’s maybe a bit annoying when people do this, but does it really need a whole campaign website? Not everyone is going to communicate in exactly the way you like.

jim-jim-jim 4y ago
It's needlessly prickly and reinforces the Comic Book Guy image that normal people have of programmers.
lo_zamoyski 4y ago
Yeah, it is suggestive of "first-world problems" and a bizarrely rigid personality (and a lack of a sense of humor). (According to the "About" page, the author is "specialized in software engineering and digital signal processing". Perhaps a case of déformation professionnelle?)
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
rgoulter 4y ago
> Not everyone is going to communicate in exactly the way you like. Sure, but do you put these differences down to individuality, or to culture? If someone messages "hello", is this just social, is it that the person is blocked and cannot do anything, or is it a request for help where the person will probably be able to solve the problem (but would be quicker with help)? Mismatches in cultural expectations lead to friction/conflict. I think it's generally going to be better to be aware of what the different expectations are.

gardenhedge 4y ago

My coworkers have it down to a tee (the wrong way that is): Co-worker: hello Me: Hi, what's up? Co-worker: got 5 mins? Me: Sure Co-worker: rings me to ask a question that could have been a single chat message In isolation, this would be fine but this can happen multiple times a day.

JackFr 4y ago
I used to be infuriated with colleagues who felt the need to preface questions with “Question…” and then ask the question. Just ask the damned question. I should be able to figure out that it’s a question. Now I am more patient.
- jcelerier 4y ago
  It's not about the question, it's about the interaction. I scream internally everytime I get messages without "hello" on a new day, to me this is so rude
michaelsalim 4y ago
I had a similar experience with one coworker that almost drove me nuts Co-worker: Hello Me: Hey, what's up? Co-worker: Do you have a minute? Me: Sure Co-worker: Can I ask you a question? Me: Yeah, what is it? Co-worker: Actually, it's a bit hard to explain, can we can on a call? Me: (screaming internally)

jkukul 4y ago

I'm always annoyed by "hello" messages. I once got to a point where I almost started creating a Slack bot that automatically replies with a "Hello" to such hello messages. In the end I never got to implement it but I still think that it is the right way to make the problem go away. For now, I just settled on being more patient and stoic about the "Hello" kind of people and to lead by example and not do it myself.

newbieuser 4y ago

people who are obsessed with this subject usually have poor communication skills.

mberning 4y ago
Usually the biggest office asshole and last person you want to talk to for anything. The living embodiment of Nick Burns. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=25J3u3P-HHg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=25J3u3P-HHg

jbergstroem 4y ago

When these types of conversations come up, I prefer the phrase “optimize for the receiver” - thinking on how to best be understood versus what is easiest/most convenient for the sender (in the hello case: requiring someone’s attention).

LAC-Tech 4y ago

This seems to stress a lot of people out. But doesn't stress me out at all. After a bit of thought, I think it's because I turn off notifications for all slack/email type stuff at work. Instead I just habitually check them. If someone really urgently needs me, I'm sure they'll call.

mberning 4y ago

Imagine being this triggered because somebody opened their conversation with “Hello”. In my experience not many people will simply leave it at “Hello” for more than a few minutes. At which point you can respond to their question. And if they never provide more details then the problem solved itself.

prepend 4y ago

Wouldn’t it be nice if everyone just wrote letters? I suspect the author is annoyed when the cashier says “hello, how are you?” before they start ringing them up. This is just culture. Being upset about it is an inefficient waste of energy. I think people frequently say hello to ease people into their request. To note that we’re all human and more than just doing jobs. Also to prove and see if you’re there and available for an interruption. If you don’t respond to “hello,” then perhaps instead of messaging they will call or email or wait. If they wanted async, they would just email.

jemmyw 4y ago

I used to do the nohello thing but since seeing this popup a few years ago I switched back to hello to be annoying. I've got an instinctive reaction whenever I'm told what to do to try doing the opposite.