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I’m absolutely astonished that anyone trusts Telegram for their communication. Both on a technological, ownership, operational and geopolitical basis. Their “ag

I’m absolutely astonished that anyone trusts Telegram for their communication. Both on a technological, ownership, operational and geopolitical basis. Their “agreement” with the Russians government is beyond sketchy, they’re 100% authoritarian located/exposed and they’ve a track record of bad encryption, what am I missing?

CyanBird 4y ago
> what am I missing? That the cia has got far more leverage on it than any other foreign powers It is used fantastically by them on the current iran unrest and as a medium to pierce against Russian information spheres Where zunzuneo failed telegram has succeeded and blossomed
dzonga 4y ago
i'm in the west - what's russia gonna do to me ? whereas in the west the us / uk gvt can come pounce on me anytime if i use western apps.
- patates 4y ago
  - Share your information with anyone, or even sell it, without any consequences - Accumulate data and try to use it for mass manipulation These are from the top of my head.
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    So, same as every other chat platform, be it facebook or google, or discord, or microsoft,...?
    - Nimitz14 4y ago
      They do not sell your data.
      - fsflover 4y ago
        But they do use it to manipulate you.
      - jesterson 4y ago
        You can't be serious stating that, can you? What makes you stating that so undoubtedly?
    - 7v3x3n3sem9vv 4y ago
      Signal collects zero user data
ajsnigrutin 4y ago
Considering the current geopolitical situation, as someone living in the EU, it's safer for me to have my data/chats leaked to the russians than to facebook (whatsapp) or google (whatever their chat app of the day is named now). I'm pretty sure our law inforcement doesn't have a direct access to private telegram data.
- WmWsjA6B29B4nfk 4y ago
  How about leaking your data to both Russians and Western LEA? Telegram is run by an UK LLC.
- lxgr 4y ago
  This seems like a false dichotomy: The choice isn’t "leak my data to western or the Russian government". End-to-end encrypted (by default and for all chats) messengers exist, but Telegram simply isn‘t one of them.
  - miohtama 4y ago
    We can also use WeChat and TikTok and leak to the Chinese government :)
  - selfhoster11 4y ago
    Can you point to the Git repo for WhatsApp, or iMessage, or Facebook Messenger? I sure can't, and don't trust any claims of backdoor-free E2E messaging until I see that. Other than Signal, Telegram is one of the very few messengers that happens to be both E2E capable in some way, open source, and sufficiently heard of that people won't give you weird looks when you suggest downloading the app.
    - lxgr 4y ago
      No objection to Signal, but mentioning that in the same breath as Telegram hurts my head. Telegram is not end-to-end encrypted in any practical scenario (you can‘t use it on multiple devices, for example), their end-to-end encryption uses some ridiculous/scary homebrew cryptography ("with the power of 5 math PhDs and a bug bounty worth millions!!!"), and being open source doesn‘t help a bit if the service provider just gets everything in plaintext anyway by default.
cpach 4y ago
You’re not missing anything.
souvlakee 4y ago
As Russian, I can say that Telegram in Russia is the number one messenger among Russian government's oppositionists. Simply saying, if you have anti-goverment channels/chats/friends in you Telegram, before walk outside, you remove/hide them in order no to have issues if police officer stop you and ask to unlock your phone (rarely, but happens). Same for Belarus. Many reasons why Telegram is (most probably) safe. There are a lot of black/gray area stuff here like drugs etc. That people (i don't support them) trust Telegram showing us it's secure. And the Telegram's owner (Pavel Durov) relocated from Russia for ever due to issues with his previous project (VK) when goverment asked to show private/personal data.
- orbital-decay 4y ago
  Regardless of encryption or authorities cooperation shenanigans, Telegram has (had?) a serious privacy issue in that your number is public by default, and even if you set it to private after the registration, it gives enough time for a state actor to siphon your phone number off your profile, by running a bot with access to SMS. Which is enough for all practical purposes. The only real reason ex-Soviet drug users keep using Telegram is they are careless and it's popular. Another suspicion of many is that most of the drug trade in Russia is under FSB "protection", and they have no reason to kill the goose that lays golden eggs. Drug dealers only run Telegram for their clientele though, with anonymous SIMs and Tor; for more serious purposes, they and other criminals use more secure communication channels, XMPP in particular. >the Telegram's owner (Pavel Durov) relocated from Russia for ever due to issues with his previous project (VK) ...while keeping Telegram developers in Moscow and regularly showing up there himself. (no idea whether it's still true, probably not) I can't say with 100% confidence that Telegram itself is compromised, though, there's no clear evidence for that. Some smoke probably, but no fire, sketchy indeed.
- rfoo 4y ago
  > before walk outside, you remove/hide them in order no to have issues if police officer stop you and ask to unlock your phone In China, too. With a more aggressive approach: just remove the app before going out.
  - 4y ago
throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
it's primarily used as a platform, not a messenger also, Telegram has no ties to Russia
- dodgerdan 4y ago
  Their offices of record were empty when check by journalists. The founder is Russian, most of the engineering team is Russian. The founder visits Russia regularly. I assume their non-resident Russian engineers visit Russia too.Most of their user base is Russian. And they have an agreement with the Russian government not to be blocked if they cooperate on combatting terrorism.
  - throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
    >The founder is Russian who had his billion dollar business (vk.com) stolen by the russian government, left the country and acquired cirizenship elsewhere it's a pretty good indicator that he is not a putin's stooge >most of the engineering team is Russian. The founder visits Russia regularly. I assume their non-resident Russian engineers visit Russia too.Most of their user base is Russian. is Microsoft an Indian company? the CEO is Indian, half the engineers are Indian, yada yada yada >And they have an agreement with the Russian government not to be blocked if they cooperate on combatting terrorism. I got the impression that it was just a way out for the russian government to give up on trying to block it, after they have repeatedly failed to do so
- ptnxlo 4y ago
  "Telegram has no ties to Russia", this sounds like a statement. How sure are you of this?
  - tail_exchange 4y ago
    Seems reasonable considering that the Russian government tried repeatedly to shut them down and the founder fled the country and got citizenship elsewhere. How sure are you thay they do have ties with the Russian government?
lzaaz 4y ago
It's not about trust, it's about having good clients and features, and they win hands down there.
philippejara 4y ago
How is that any different than facebook/whatsapp/etc? I can't comment on the encryption part but in a post NSA, which seems to have only worsened, trusting US publically traded companies is just as bad, russia isn't china, and for better or worse pavel seems to be an ideologue. If you want really safe comms I don't know if any popular chat app would do the job, maybe signal? don't know much about it however.
- acapybara 4y ago
  Have a look at Briar.
- UnpossibleJim 4y ago
  I like Signal, and I use it... with one other person. No one uses Signal.which is its biggest problem. Without adoption it's a useless app.
  - OtomotO 4y ago
    Most of my contacts use signal. For the few that don't I have IRC, email, sms, phone calls... Never used WhatsApp, Telegram etc What I am saying: it depends on your individual bubble and where you come from. ;-)
arglebargle123 4y ago
Two things: Telegram hit that critical mass of users early on that ensures there are enough reasons to use telegram that new users sign up and stay, and the client itself is a solidly good user experience. Contrast that with something like Element or Session where there aren't many people to talk to and the client is buggy jank and you've explained why people are still using Telegram.
TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
You are missing the concept which made Apple successful - polished and simple UI which just works. Telegram is same. And the fact that Telegram is not really secure? Most people does not care.
sorenjan 4y ago
Telegram has been used by opposition and protestors in Hong Kong, Russia, and Belarus. Where are the reports of arrests based on intercepted Telegram messages? Russian police force people on the street to show their messages, but that kind of rubber hose attack is the same for all chat apps. Are there any police investigations from democratic countries where the investigators used Telegram communication in a prosecution? I haven't seen anyone show that Telegram uses bad encryption. I've seen plenty of people repeat the "don't make your own crypto implementation" mantra, but just like the "don't optimize prematurely" truthism it's not always true. Where's the exploits? And then there's another reason, most communication isn't particularly sensitive. Dinner suggestions, memes, thoughts on the latest season of The Crown... I chat about the same things that I talk about on the unencrypted phone "line", or at a cafe surrounded by strangers. If Telegram turns out to be unsafe, I wouldn't have any issue with continuing using it for everyday stuff, and using a different app for secrets. Compartmentalizing is probably a good idea anyway, I use my real name on Telegram with my family.
- d3nj4l 4y ago
  > Are there any police investigations from democratic countries where the investigators used Telegram communication in a prosecution? Literally a week ago in India: https://torrentfreak.com/telegram-discloses-user-details-of-pirating-users-following-court-order-221130/ https://torrentfreak.com/telegram-discloses-user-details-of-... > I haven't seen anyone show that Telegram uses bad encryption The bigger point isn't that Telegram uses "bad encryption", it's that it isn't encrypted by default in all scenarios. This is a conscious choice they've made. > If Telegram turns out to be unsafe, I wouldn't have any issue with continuing using it for everyday stuff, and using a different app for secrets. Great, now every time you're talking on the "other" app the State knows you're talking about something sensitive. The point of encrypting everything is to ensure that encryption - by itself - is not a sign of illicit activity.
  - 19h 4y ago
    They disclosed the phone number. A week later, they introduced a no-SIM signup. Go figure.
  - 4y ago
wereallterrrist 4y ago
Youre just missing the feigned shock that will be expressed when the inevitable happens. Im no RMS fan, but man if my privacy-first, open-first approach to things hasnt borne fruit year after year after year. It seems peoole often cant be arsed to care until theyre invested and the blast radius is wider. But those stickers yall.
hulitu 4y ago
> I’m absolutely astonished that anyone trusts Telegram for their communication Why ? Are you russian ? Do you travel to Russia ? A lot of people also trust WhatsApp and Signal for their communications and i'm sure that no western government will ever spy on them. I'm joking. Just be aware that encryption is not useful when your OS provider has access to your keys.

CyanBird 4y ago

> what am I missing? That the cia has got far more leverage on it than any other foreign powers It is used fantastically by them on the current iran unrest and as a medium to pierce against Russian information spheres Where zunzuneo failed telegram has succeeded and blossomed

dzonga 4y ago

i'm in the west - what's russia gonna do to me ? whereas in the west the us / uk gvt can come pounce on me anytime if i use western apps.

patates 4y ago
- Share your information with anyone, or even sell it, without any consequences - Accumulate data and try to use it for mass manipulation These are from the top of my head.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  So, same as every other chat platform, be it facebook or google, or discord, or microsoft,...?
  - Nimitz14 4y ago
    They do not sell your data.
    - fsflover 4y ago
      But they do use it to manipulate you.
    - jesterson 4y ago
      You can't be serious stating that, can you? What makes you stating that so undoubtedly?
  - 7v3x3n3sem9vv 4y ago
    Signal collects zero user data

ajsnigrutin 4y ago

Considering the current geopolitical situation, as someone living in the EU, it's safer for me to have my data/chats leaked to the russians than to facebook (whatsapp) or google (whatever their chat app of the day is named now). I'm pretty sure our law inforcement doesn't have a direct access to private telegram data.

WmWsjA6B29B4nfk 4y ago
How about leaking your data to both Russians and Western LEA? Telegram is run by an UK LLC.
lxgr 4y ago
This seems like a false dichotomy: The choice isn’t "leak my data to western or the Russian government". End-to-end encrypted (by default and for all chats) messengers exist, but Telegram simply isn‘t one of them.
- miohtama 4y ago
  We can also use WeChat and TikTok and leak to the Chinese government :)
- selfhoster11 4y ago
  Can you point to the Git repo for WhatsApp, or iMessage, or Facebook Messenger? I sure can't, and don't trust any claims of backdoor-free E2E messaging until I see that. Other than Signal, Telegram is one of the very few messengers that happens to be both E2E capable in some way, open source, and sufficiently heard of that people won't give you weird looks when you suggest downloading the app.
  - lxgr 4y ago
    No objection to Signal, but mentioning that in the same breath as Telegram hurts my head. Telegram is not end-to-end encrypted in any practical scenario (you can‘t use it on multiple devices, for example), their end-to-end encryption uses some ridiculous/scary homebrew cryptography ("with the power of 5 math PhDs and a bug bounty worth millions!!!"), and being open source doesn‘t help a bit if the service provider just gets everything in plaintext anyway by default.

cpach 4y ago

You’re not missing anything.

souvlakee 4y ago

As Russian, I can say that Telegram in Russia is the number one messenger among Russian government's oppositionists. Simply saying, if you have anti-goverment channels/chats/friends in you Telegram, before walk outside, you remove/hide them in order no to have issues if police officer stop you and ask to unlock your phone (rarely, but happens). Same for Belarus. Many reasons why Telegram is (most probably) safe. There are a lot of black/gray area stuff here like drugs etc. That people (i don't support them) trust Telegram showing us it's secure. And the Telegram's owner (Pavel Durov) relocated from Russia for ever due to issues with his previous project (VK) when goverment asked to show private/personal data.

orbital-decay 4y ago
Regardless of encryption or authorities cooperation shenanigans, Telegram has (had?) a serious privacy issue in that your number is public by default, and even if you set it to private after the registration, it gives enough time for a state actor to siphon your phone number off your profile, by running a bot with access to SMS. Which is enough for all practical purposes. The only real reason ex-Soviet drug users keep using Telegram is they are careless and it's popular. Another suspicion of many is that most of the drug trade in Russia is under FSB "protection", and they have no reason to kill the goose that lays golden eggs. Drug dealers only run Telegram for their clientele though, with anonymous SIMs and Tor; for more serious purposes, they and other criminals use more secure communication channels, XMPP in particular. >the Telegram's owner (Pavel Durov) relocated from Russia for ever due to issues with his previous project (VK) ...while keeping Telegram developers in Moscow and regularly showing up there himself. (no idea whether it's still true, probably not) I can't say with 100% confidence that Telegram itself is compromised, though, there's no clear evidence for that. Some smoke probably, but no fire, sketchy indeed.
rfoo 4y ago
> before walk outside, you remove/hide them in order no to have issues if police officer stop you and ask to unlock your phone In China, too. With a more aggressive approach: just remove the app before going out.
- 4y ago

throwaway0x7E6 4y ago

it's primarily used as a platform, not a messenger also, Telegram has no ties to Russia

dodgerdan 4y ago
Their offices of record were empty when check by journalists. The founder is Russian, most of the engineering team is Russian. The founder visits Russia regularly. I assume their non-resident Russian engineers visit Russia too.Most of their user base is Russian. And they have an agreement with the Russian government not to be blocked if they cooperate on combatting terrorism.
- throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
  >The founder is Russian who had his billion dollar business (vk.com) stolen by the russian government, left the country and acquired cirizenship elsewhere it's a pretty good indicator that he is not a putin's stooge >most of the engineering team is Russian. The founder visits Russia regularly. I assume their non-resident Russian engineers visit Russia too.Most of their user base is Russian. is Microsoft an Indian company? the CEO is Indian, half the engineers are Indian, yada yada yada >And they have an agreement with the Russian government not to be blocked if they cooperate on combatting terrorism. I got the impression that it was just a way out for the russian government to give up on trying to block it, after they have repeatedly failed to do so
ptnxlo 4y ago
"Telegram has no ties to Russia", this sounds like a statement. How sure are you of this?
- tail_exchange 4y ago
  Seems reasonable considering that the Russian government tried repeatedly to shut them down and the founder fled the country and got citizenship elsewhere. How sure are you thay they do have ties with the Russian government?

lzaaz 4y ago

It's not about trust, it's about having good clients and features, and they win hands down there.

philippejara 4y ago

How is that any different than facebook/whatsapp/etc? I can't comment on the encryption part but in a post NSA, which seems to have only worsened, trusting US publically traded companies is just as bad, russia isn't china, and for better or worse pavel seems to be an ideologue. If you want really safe comms I don't know if any popular chat app would do the job, maybe signal? don't know much about it however.

acapybara 4y ago
Have a look at Briar.
UnpossibleJim 4y ago
I like Signal, and I use it... with one other person. No one uses Signal.which is its biggest problem. Without adoption it's a useless app.
- OtomotO 4y ago
  Most of my contacts use signal. For the few that don't I have IRC, email, sms, phone calls... Never used WhatsApp, Telegram etc What I am saying: it depends on your individual bubble and where you come from. ;-)

arglebargle123 4y ago

Two things: Telegram hit that critical mass of users early on that ensures there are enough reasons to use telegram that new users sign up and stay, and the client itself is a solidly good user experience. Contrast that with something like Element or Session where there aren't many people to talk to and the client is buggy jank and you've explained why people are still using Telegram.

TheLoafOfBread 4y ago

You are missing the concept which made Apple successful - polished and simple UI which just works. Telegram is same. And the fact that Telegram is not really secure? Most people does not care.

sorenjan 4y ago

Telegram has been used by opposition and protestors in Hong Kong, Russia, and Belarus. Where are the reports of arrests based on intercepted Telegram messages? Russian police force people on the street to show their messages, but that kind of rubber hose attack is the same for all chat apps. Are there any police investigations from democratic countries where the investigators used Telegram communication in a prosecution? I haven't seen anyone show that Telegram uses bad encryption. I've seen plenty of people repeat the "don't make your own crypto implementation" mantra, but just like the "don't optimize prematurely" truthism it's not always true. Where's the exploits? And then there's another reason, most communication isn't particularly sensitive. Dinner suggestions, memes, thoughts on the latest season of The Crown... I chat about the same things that I talk about on the unencrypted phone "line", or at a cafe surrounded by strangers. If Telegram turns out to be unsafe, I wouldn't have any issue with continuing using it for everyday stuff, and using a different app for secrets. Compartmentalizing is probably a good idea anyway, I use my real name on Telegram with my family.

d3nj4l 4y ago
> Are there any police investigations from democratic countries where the investigators used Telegram communication in a prosecution? Literally a week ago in India: https://torrentfreak.com/telegram-discloses-user-details-of-pirating-users-following-court-order-221130/ https://torrentfreak.com/telegram-discloses-user-details-of-... > I haven't seen anyone show that Telegram uses bad encryption The bigger point isn't that Telegram uses "bad encryption", it's that it isn't encrypted by default in all scenarios. This is a conscious choice they've made. > If Telegram turns out to be unsafe, I wouldn't have any issue with continuing using it for everyday stuff, and using a different app for secrets. Great, now every time you're talking on the "other" app the State knows you're talking about something sensitive. The point of encrypting everything is to ensure that encryption - by itself - is not a sign of illicit activity.
- 19h 4y ago
  They disclosed the phone number. A week later, they introduced a no-SIM signup. Go figure.
- 4y ago

wereallterrrist 4y ago

Youre just missing the feigned shock that will be expressed when the inevitable happens. Im no RMS fan, but man if my privacy-first, open-first approach to things hasnt borne fruit year after year after year. It seems peoole often cant be arsed to care until theyre invested and the blast radius is wider. But those stickers yall.

hulitu 4y ago

> I’m absolutely astonished that anyone trusts Telegram for their communication Why ? Are you russian ? Do you travel to Russia ? A lot of people also trust WhatsApp and Signal for their communications and i'm sure that no western government will ever spy on them. I'm joking. Just be aware that encryption is not useful when your OS provider has access to your keys.