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That is not an argument. The same way wokes say “look at Europe” when it comes to healthcare, conservatives say “look at Europe” when it comes to id cards. All

That is not an argument. The same way wokes say “look at Europe” when it comes to healthcare, conservatives say “look at Europe” when it comes to id cards. All through the EU, id cards are the norm. If we can do it, so can you. This whole “but think of the black people” is bs. What are you, some kind of racist? You don’t think black people can get ids?

asveikau 4y ago
Obviously there's no shortage of ugly history in Europe, but Europe doesn't have this particular historical context. I would expect Europeans to be naive about this. I've had this discussion before. > You don’t think black people can get ids? Statistically, they are less likely to do so. Edit: For me, an eye opening tidbit was this admission by a Republican strategist that the late 20th century discourse was about shifting from overt language about racism to more covert, abstract, economic talking points that are still rooted in racism. This is a left wing source but has the actual audio recording of that admission. https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/exclusive-lee-atwaters-infamous-1981-interview-southern-strategy/ https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/exclusive-lee-atwa... -- the takeaway is that you can't take a surface level read on a proposal and trust that no direct mention of race implies that it is not racist. I think what Atwater predicted in this clip somewhat came true. Enough time has passed that young people have unironically embraced the dog whistles as idealized abstractions about small government and economics, states rights or federalism, without realizing they used to be dog whistles and not genuinely held when popularized.
- thewrongthinker 4y ago
  > Statistically, they are less likely to do so. Holy shit mate, do you hear your self? This is literally 13/52 talk. Black people can get ids, they should get ids, just like everyone does in every other civilised country. I honestly can’t understand how anyone can oppose such a simple and natural thing.
  - asveikau 4y ago
    https://www.aclu.org/fact-sheet/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-sheet https://www.aclu.org/fact-sheet/oppose-voter-id-legislation-... > Minority voters disproportionately lack ID. Nationally, up to 25% of African- American citizens of voting age lack government-issued photo ID, compared to only 8% of whites. I did not make up the statistic. I do not endorse it or wish it to continue, but numerically, that is what it is. This is probably the largest reason one side of the American political spectrum, the one who would benefit from lower racial minority turnout, supports tightening the laws. In tight elections like we routinely have, that statistical disparity can be enough to alter electoral outcomes.
    - throwawayacc3 4y ago
      ACLU is no longer an unbiased source and regularly peddles regime propaganda. "Studies of the effects of voter ID laws on turnout in the United States have generally found that such laws have little, if any, effect on turnout." [0] "A 2014 study from the University of Iowa found no evidence that strict voter ID laws reduce minority turnout.[127] A 2012 study found that, although the Georgia voter ID laws lowered overall turnout by 0.4%, there was no racial or ethnic component to the suppression effect." [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_identification_laws_in_the_United_States#Turnout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_identification_laws_in_t...
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      - asveikau 4y ago
        Sorry, I tried a few drafts and I'm not sure how to say this. I am blown away by your reference to "the regime". It destroys your credibility immediately. It marks you as a very paranoid person. I don't agree with everything ACLU says or does either. I don't start accusing them of conspiracy theories. I feel like pockets of HN are much more pro right wing conspiracy theory vs. just one year ago. Anyway, the Wikipedia article you link to also has my argument represented, too ... Maybe read more of it.
kelnos 4y ago
I am usually very agreeable toward arguments of the form "all of Europe does X, so it's ridiculous to assume the US can't too". This is one of the cases where that's not true. ID requirements have been used for centuries in the US to disenfranchise various groups of voters. That's fact. If you know of a specific way to enforce strong ID requirements while somehow changing culture and politics dramatically for a huge swath of people such that this disenfranchisement stops being a problem, by all means, please let us know. Otherwise, your idea will not work.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  >>you know of a specific way to enforce strong ID requirements Do you know of any state that even has or is proposing "strong ID requirements" in the first place, because most of the Voter ID Laws I have seen passed have very very weak ID Requirements, often not even requiring offical government ID, instead accepting all mannar of types if ID including school issued ID's, Libary ID;s (if they ahve a photo), some even accept employer made ID's All states that have voter ID laws also include a provision to get Free State Issues ID's so there is no cost requirement. > ID requirements have been used for centuries in the US to disenfranchise Because something was bad in the past, implemented in a different way, with different terms, under a difference society does is not a justification for opposition today. >>If you know of a specific way Some of the reforms / requirements I would like to see for voting 1. Week Long Voting including at-least 1 Sat and 1 Sun separated by 5 days. 2. In Person only unless provided a medical or other reason they can vote in person 3. if we are to have "ballot harvesting" Ballot collection only by certified, sworn and bonded person. A program akin to something notary public, and the collector must sign or otherwise identify their collections on the outside of the secure envelope, collections will be recorded and made part of the public record showing how many ballots each collector collected, and for what voter 4. Work with private partners to provide more polling locations, I am unclear why every Walmart, is not a polling location as an example 5. Remove all political parties from the ballot. We vote for people, not parties. that is just a start

asveikau 4y ago

Obviously there's no shortage of ugly history in Europe, but Europe doesn't have this particular historical context. I would expect Europeans to be naive about this. I've had this discussion before. > You don’t think black people can get ids? Statistically, they are less likely to do so. Edit: For me, an eye opening tidbit was this admission by a Republican strategist that the late 20th century discourse was about shifting from overt language about racism to more covert, abstract, economic talking points that are still rooted in racism. This is a left wing source but has the actual audio recording of that admission. https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/exclusive-lee-atwaters-infamous-1981-interview-southern-strategy/ https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/exclusive-lee-atwa... -- the takeaway is that you can't take a surface level read on a proposal and trust that no direct mention of race implies that it is not racist. I think what Atwater predicted in this clip somewhat came true. Enough time has passed that young people have unironically embraced the dog whistles as idealized abstractions about small government and economics, states rights or federalism, without realizing they used to be dog whistles and not genuinely held when popularized.

thewrongthinker 4y ago
> Statistically, they are less likely to do so. Holy shit mate, do you hear your self? This is literally 13/52 talk. Black people can get ids, they should get ids, just like everyone does in every other civilised country. I honestly can’t understand how anyone can oppose such a simple and natural thing.
- asveikau 4y ago
  https://www.aclu.org/fact-sheet/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-sheet https://www.aclu.org/fact-sheet/oppose-voter-id-legislation-... > Minority voters disproportionately lack ID. Nationally, up to 25% of African- American citizens of voting age lack government-issued photo ID, compared to only 8% of whites. I did not make up the statistic. I do not endorse it or wish it to continue, but numerically, that is what it is. This is probably the largest reason one side of the American political spectrum, the one who would benefit from lower racial minority turnout, supports tightening the laws. In tight elections like we routinely have, that statistical disparity can be enough to alter electoral outcomes.
  - throwawayacc3 4y ago
    ACLU is no longer an unbiased source and regularly peddles regime propaganda. "Studies of the effects of voter ID laws on turnout in the United States have generally found that such laws have little, if any, effect on turnout." [0] "A 2014 study from the University of Iowa found no evidence that strict voter ID laws reduce minority turnout.[127] A 2012 study found that, although the Georgia voter ID laws lowered overall turnout by 0.4%, there was no racial or ethnic component to the suppression effect." [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_identification_laws_in_the_United_States#Turnout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_identification_laws_in_t...
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    - asveikau 4y ago
      Sorry, I tried a few drafts and I'm not sure how to say this. I am blown away by your reference to "the regime". It destroys your credibility immediately. It marks you as a very paranoid person. I don't agree with everything ACLU says or does either. I don't start accusing them of conspiracy theories. I feel like pockets of HN are much more pro right wing conspiracy theory vs. just one year ago. Anyway, the Wikipedia article you link to also has my argument represented, too ... Maybe read more of it.

kelnos 4y ago

I am usually very agreeable toward arguments of the form "all of Europe does X, so it's ridiculous to assume the US can't too". This is one of the cases where that's not true. ID requirements have been used for centuries in the US to disenfranchise various groups of voters. That's fact. If you know of a specific way to enforce strong ID requirements while somehow changing culture and politics dramatically for a huge swath of people such that this disenfranchisement stops being a problem, by all means, please let us know. Otherwise, your idea will not work.

phpisthebest 4y ago
>>you know of a specific way to enforce strong ID requirements Do you know of any state that even has or is proposing "strong ID requirements" in the first place, because most of the Voter ID Laws I have seen passed have very very weak ID Requirements, often not even requiring offical government ID, instead accepting all mannar of types if ID including school issued ID's, Libary ID;s (if they ahve a photo), some even accept employer made ID's All states that have voter ID laws also include a provision to get Free State Issues ID's so there is no cost requirement. > ID requirements have been used for centuries in the US to disenfranchise Because something was bad in the past, implemented in a different way, with different terms, under a difference society does is not a justification for opposition today. >>If you know of a specific way Some of the reforms / requirements I would like to see for voting 1. Week Long Voting including at-least 1 Sat and 1 Sun separated by 5 days. 2. In Person only unless provided a medical or other reason they can vote in person 3. if we are to have "ballot harvesting" Ballot collection only by certified, sworn and bonded person. A program akin to something notary public, and the collector must sign or otherwise identify their collections on the outside of the secure envelope, collections will be recorded and made part of the public record showing how many ballots each collector collected, and for what voter 4. Work with private partners to provide more polling locations, I am unclear why every Walmart, is not a polling location as an example 5. Remove all political parties from the ballot. We vote for people, not parties. that is just a start