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Have lived in the EU and they definitely have a stronger concept of censorship there. You honestly don't have a right to say anything you want, especially if yo

Have lived in the EU and they definitely have a stronger concept of censorship there. You honestly don't have a right to say anything you want, especially if you are saying things to a large audience who might be incited. Most people I have met are quite happy that people such as nazis are censored and cannot spread hate. Given their history, that makes some sense, but I honestly get the feeling they focus too much on appearances and not on trying to actually undermine these groups and interfere with their recruiting. You will find plenty of such people in working class bars around the continent, but as long as they are not making public shows and speeches, the populace seems to ignore them.

Krasnol 4y ago
Why not both? Seriously, showing off symbols of national socialism saved Germany many embarrassing clips on international media. All those groups who gathered under the anti-intellectual agenda of the past years here in Germany would have had someone with this stuff marching the streets against covid restrictions, etc. I wouldn't call it censorship either. No symbol or idea is being repressed. You can learn about the lies of Holocaust deniers. About the symbols, and so on. Youre "just" not supposed to go out there and recruit people with those tools. The discussion and misunderstanding OP has seen here comes from the fact that the "radical" free speech laws in the US set no borders on spreading this kind of propaganda. The results are very visible these days in the US and I'm happy they're not in Germany (at least not in a relevant way). This from a foreigner who has been living in Germany for longer.
- erdos4d 4y ago
  > I wouldn't call it censorship either. No symbol or idea is being repressed. In Germany it is straight up illegal to display nazi symbols, do their salute, or even advocate their beliefs, isn't it? I was told as much by quite a few Germans at least. That said, my problem with the censorship approach is that these groups appeal to actual problems within society and individuals, and by censoring them, none of that goes away. If anything, I think they just get pushed underground and the real issues that allow them to successfully recruit are still there, and they just do it quietly, which is why the local motorcycle club is full of fucking nazis, like it or not. The only way to stop these groups is to remove the fuel, which implies making changes to society itself to reduce the number of people who are in poor circumstances and might find a voice telling them it is the immigrants/jews/brown people who are to blame for their personal sense of injustice. Officially censoring also gives an anti-establishment sheen to them that definitely appeals to some.
  - Krasnol 4y ago
    > In Germany it is straight up illegal to display nazi symbols, do their salute, or even advocate their beliefs, isn't it? I was told as much by quite a few Germans at least. You can display them for educational or artistic reasons for example. This is not a religious law. It's forbidden to walk around randomly with a swastika on your T-Shirt or recruit people under your new fascist party which has a swastika as a logo for example. > That said, my problem with the censorship approach is that these groups appeal to actual problems within society and individuals, and by censoring them, none of that goes away. Those groups have enough other ways to display their affiliation and intentions. Nobody here has a problem distinguishing those since the education on those topics is quite thorough. Which goes for your second argument on how to fix it. I doubt there is a country on this planet which schools their children more clearly on this topic but there will always be that bottom parts of society which will still go there. They follow the myths and do have those "forbidden materials". However they do also have a problem coming along. It's illegal. They can't spread it openly and promote it this way. It works quite well. > Officially censoring also gives an anti-establishment sheen to them that definitely appeals to some. They don't need a picture of a swastika to justify that story. I think the misunderstanding here comes again from this "free speech" doctrine which doesn't allow for self thinking. Everything is 1 or 0 because otherwise it would be too complicated. But it can work different. It works in Germany at least.
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    > In Germany it is straight up illegal to display nazi symbols, do their salute, or even advocate their beliefs, isn't it? How is that different from communism being illegal in the US? At least Germans banned Nazism which was born in Germany and wrote one of the worst pages of modern history, same reason why in Italy the fascist party is illegal and cannot be recreated. Both have creates societies were violence is an order of magnitude less prominent than in the US and society tries to help those in need, more than those with deep pockets. Maybe educating people to avoid totally nihilistic and destructive ideas works... What's the excuse USA found to ban communism, which never actually rose to power there? Imagine a country where you can be a Nazi, praise Hitler, say that there's good in him and that you love the Jews but also Nazis, but can't stand for workers rights and support the class struggle. How dare they to even think about it? Also: remember when to export encryption freely the World had only one option: avoid USA? GPG was possible only because a German free software developer (Werner Koch) created and maintained it, if it was for US laws, nobody else could use it. If that's their idea of freedom, I'd rather stay on the Germans side.
- brigandish 4y ago
  > Seriously, showing off symbols of national socialism saved Germany many embarrassing clips on international media. There we have it, the true philosophical split between those who support freedom of expression and those who would limit it. The first care for truth more than the problems expressing the truth bring, and the latter care more about orderliness and reputation, the clinging to which brings myriad problems too (far worse in my opinion, but who could compare a few harsh words on Twitter or in a newspaper with a the rise of fascism in several places and the odd genocide?)
  - Krasnol 4y ago
    You have the freedom of expression. You'll be prosecuted for some of it though. It's been the case since we invented speech. Insulting your fellow tribesman would probably have had even more severe consequences. What we actually have here is what I expressed in an answer below: certain people understand only 0 and 1 but humans are not like that. One needs to grow up and have a proper education to understand that but it will work than. It does in Germany. We neither slipped into some dystopian censorship state nor did it lead to harm within the society. So how about looking at reality for a change?
    - brigandish 4y ago
      > You have the freedom of expression. You'll be prosecuted for some of it though. The freedom in freedom of expression is the freedom from consequences other than: - being listened to - being ignored - getting speech in return > One needs to grow up and have a proper education to understand… > So how about looking at reality for a change? How about you try reading about the subject first, or asking people who've thought it through far longer than the the arrogant instant you spent on it, and then it will save us all from having to endure your blurting out basic mental errors which you use in pursuit of an authoritarianism that you erroneously think will lead somewhere different than the authoritarianism you claim it counters. The HN guidelines[0] say: > Be kind. Don't be snarky. I'm always happy to make an exception for those who decide such unwarranted lack of respect is okay though. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#comments https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#comments
- helloworld11 4y ago
  >The results are very visible these days in the US and I'm happy they're not in Germany (at least not in a relevant way). Your "tolerant" western Europe has no shortage of ingrained racism of all kinds that it just sweeps under the rug to a degree that in the U.S doesn't happen nearly so much. Many Americans are indeed racist but at least in the U.S there's a lot of very open, free and very public discussion and debate about it. In the EU, it's more a case of people patting themselves on the back because they ban symbolic things and hide the modern nasty traits so many of their fellows still have towards all kinds of ethnicities. Free speech "radicalism" is not responsible for racial tensions in the U.S. If anything it helps ease them slowly by bringing them into the open.
hypertele-Xii 4y ago
A tolerant society cannot tolerate intolerance.

Krasnol 4y ago

Why not both? Seriously, showing off symbols of national socialism saved Germany many embarrassing clips on international media. All those groups who gathered under the anti-intellectual agenda of the past years here in Germany would have had someone with this stuff marching the streets against covid restrictions, etc. I wouldn't call it censorship either. No symbol or idea is being repressed. You can learn about the lies of Holocaust deniers. About the symbols, and so on. Youre "just" not supposed to go out there and recruit people with those tools. The discussion and misunderstanding OP has seen here comes from the fact that the "radical" free speech laws in the US set no borders on spreading this kind of propaganda. The results are very visible these days in the US and I'm happy they're not in Germany (at least not in a relevant way). This from a foreigner who has been living in Germany for longer.

erdos4d 4y ago
> I wouldn't call it censorship either. No symbol or idea is being repressed. In Germany it is straight up illegal to display nazi symbols, do their salute, or even advocate their beliefs, isn't it? I was told as much by quite a few Germans at least. That said, my problem with the censorship approach is that these groups appeal to actual problems within society and individuals, and by censoring them, none of that goes away. If anything, I think they just get pushed underground and the real issues that allow them to successfully recruit are still there, and they just do it quietly, which is why the local motorcycle club is full of fucking nazis, like it or not. The only way to stop these groups is to remove the fuel, which implies making changes to society itself to reduce the number of people who are in poor circumstances and might find a voice telling them it is the immigrants/jews/brown people who are to blame for their personal sense of injustice. Officially censoring also gives an anti-establishment sheen to them that definitely appeals to some.
- Krasnol 4y ago
  > In Germany it is straight up illegal to display nazi symbols, do their salute, or even advocate their beliefs, isn't it? I was told as much by quite a few Germans at least. You can display them for educational or artistic reasons for example. This is not a religious law. It's forbidden to walk around randomly with a swastika on your T-Shirt or recruit people under your new fascist party which has a swastika as a logo for example. > That said, my problem with the censorship approach is that these groups appeal to actual problems within society and individuals, and by censoring them, none of that goes away. Those groups have enough other ways to display their affiliation and intentions. Nobody here has a problem distinguishing those since the education on those topics is quite thorough. Which goes for your second argument on how to fix it. I doubt there is a country on this planet which schools their children more clearly on this topic but there will always be that bottom parts of society which will still go there. They follow the myths and do have those "forbidden materials". However they do also have a problem coming along. It's illegal. They can't spread it openly and promote it this way. It works quite well. > Officially censoring also gives an anti-establishment sheen to them that definitely appeals to some. They don't need a picture of a swastika to justify that story. I think the misunderstanding here comes again from this "free speech" doctrine which doesn't allow for self thinking. Everything is 1 or 0 because otherwise it would be too complicated. But it can work different. It works in Germany at least.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > In Germany it is straight up illegal to display nazi symbols, do their salute, or even advocate their beliefs, isn't it? How is that different from communism being illegal in the US? At least Germans banned Nazism which was born in Germany and wrote one of the worst pages of modern history, same reason why in Italy the fascist party is illegal and cannot be recreated. Both have creates societies were violence is an order of magnitude less prominent than in the US and society tries to help those in need, more than those with deep pockets. Maybe educating people to avoid totally nihilistic and destructive ideas works... What's the excuse USA found to ban communism, which never actually rose to power there? Imagine a country where you can be a Nazi, praise Hitler, say that there's good in him and that you love the Jews but also Nazis, but can't stand for workers rights and support the class struggle. How dare they to even think about it? Also: remember when to export encryption freely the World had only one option: avoid USA? GPG was possible only because a German free software developer (Werner Koch) created and maintained it, if it was for US laws, nobody else could use it. If that's their idea of freedom, I'd rather stay on the Germans side.
brigandish 4y ago
> Seriously, showing off symbols of national socialism saved Germany many embarrassing clips on international media. There we have it, the true philosophical split between those who support freedom of expression and those who would limit it. The first care for truth more than the problems expressing the truth bring, and the latter care more about orderliness and reputation, the clinging to which brings myriad problems too (far worse in my opinion, but who could compare a few harsh words on Twitter or in a newspaper with a the rise of fascism in several places and the odd genocide?)
- Krasnol 4y ago
  You have the freedom of expression. You'll be prosecuted for some of it though. It's been the case since we invented speech. Insulting your fellow tribesman would probably have had even more severe consequences. What we actually have here is what I expressed in an answer below: certain people understand only 0 and 1 but humans are not like that. One needs to grow up and have a proper education to understand that but it will work than. It does in Germany. We neither slipped into some dystopian censorship state nor did it lead to harm within the society. So how about looking at reality for a change?
  - brigandish 4y ago
    > You have the freedom of expression. You'll be prosecuted for some of it though. The freedom in freedom of expression is the freedom from consequences other than: - being listened to - being ignored - getting speech in return > One needs to grow up and have a proper education to understand… > So how about looking at reality for a change? How about you try reading about the subject first, or asking people who've thought it through far longer than the the arrogant instant you spent on it, and then it will save us all from having to endure your blurting out basic mental errors which you use in pursuit of an authoritarianism that you erroneously think will lead somewhere different than the authoritarianism you claim it counters. The HN guidelines[0] say: > Be kind. Don't be snarky. I'm always happy to make an exception for those who decide such unwarranted lack of respect is okay though. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#comments https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#comments
helloworld11 4y ago
>The results are very visible these days in the US and I'm happy they're not in Germany (at least not in a relevant way). Your "tolerant" western Europe has no shortage of ingrained racism of all kinds that it just sweeps under the rug to a degree that in the U.S doesn't happen nearly so much. Many Americans are indeed racist but at least in the U.S there's a lot of very open, free and very public discussion and debate about it. In the EU, it's more a case of people patting themselves on the back because they ban symbolic things and hide the modern nasty traits so many of their fellows still have towards all kinds of ethnicities. Free speech "radicalism" is not responsible for racial tensions in the U.S. If anything it helps ease them slowly by bringing them into the open.

hypertele-Xii 4y ago

A tolerant society cannot tolerate intolerance.