8 ms·

But he writes coffeescript so unlike you he's a "top programmer". except for times when he writes javascript which probably would be when hes drunk or for what

by murloc 15y ago

But he writes coffeescript so unlike you he's a "top programmer". except for times when he writes javascript which probably would be when hes drunk or for whatever reasons his IQ has dropped.

tjholowaychuk 15y ago
99% of the popular people out there are just above average enough to make useful projects for those lesser experienced. Most truly talented people are not very well known, they're busy hacking on v8, the kernel etc. Tools for average programming just get more of a spotlight. Is Express complex? no, people just use it, is coffeescript complex? no, is boostrap complex? no..
- danso 15y ago
  That sounds like a really accurate statistic. So what's your metric for this? Besides the obvious law that low-level code is the only grounds for elite coding, I mean.
  - murloc 15y ago
    Easy, he hand picked a 100 people of the JS community (including him) and then decided that hes the only competent programmer amongst them.
    - tjholowaychuk 15y ago
      umm no haha, I'm certainly amongst the average. Trust me writing parsers is very trivial, I've written many. Thinking you're a good programmer is perhaps the most naive thing you can do
      - murloc 15y ago
        I know its trivial once demystified specially using parser generators. But language design isn't though. Anyways i think your a pretty decent programmer.
        tjholowaychuk 15y ago
        sure it is, take a few features from ruby, a few from python, add yaml and there you have it, coffeescript.
        murloc 15y ago
        What do you think about node? Does it fall in your category of above-average people building tools for the average programmer?
        tjholowaychuk 15y ago
        they're certainly above average but even Ryan himself is humble enough to admit he's not amazing, I dont recall what his exact words were. I think it was on google+, he was talking about how he works with such brilliant people (which are lesser known), but yeah overall node's popularity is largely because it attracts more average people to the scene, vs things like erlang or haskell which are fantastic but attract a lot less attention. This is also why I dont do conferences, I dont want to be known for going around promoting things (like crock), sure I'll blog about features added once and a while but other than that I want the projects to speak for themselves. Eventually if I can gain enough knowledge then sure being well known is neat since you can leverage it to hopefully expose better projects, but there's no end to what you can learn in this industry.
        murloc 15y ago
        Well said.
      - iso8859-1 15y ago
        Parsing: the solved problem that isn't: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2327313 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2327313
- murloc 15y ago
  Like anything else in life there is front facing people that are generally good at marketing and would use other people's hard work to build technically inferior stuff on and be famous for. Not necessary a bad thing. The truly talented most of the time choose to go unnoticed. And there is always trolls like you who I don't know how they find the time to ship code ;p
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
- strait 15y ago
  Perhaps you are being too hard on yourself. The majority (more than half) of the well known programmers truly are "superstars". It's all very subjective, though. Where is the standard for complexity or even cleverness? How is it different than simply being esoteric. Maybe I am personally fascinated with regular expressions and after much study, can belt out a half page of parse and extract 'magic' that would make the uninitiated shake their head and crown me a genius. But to me, it's simply assembling larger ideas from smaller ideas. Personally, I would say that a truly talented programmer is simply someone who is very capable in mathematics and can produce a working and extendable program in a reasonable amount of time, that does something new and useful. This criteria alone leaves a ton of people out, you know!
  - murloc 15y ago
    I think it has already been proven that there is no obvious correlation between being capable in mathematics and being a talented programmer. Thats so 1950's
    - strait 15y ago
      Not a direct coorelation, but there is certainly a dependence on being capable in mathematics. A math wizard does not make a good programmer, but one cannot be hopelessly average in math and be a talented programmer.
      - iso8859-1 15y ago
        Average of what? I'd bet 80% of 40-year-olds wouldn't be able to pass a high school level maths exam.
      - valisystem 15y ago
        Actually it really depends on what math skills you talk about. Is it really the material you are taught and can apply to software that brings a lot ? The ability to solve problems ? The culture of correctness ? The common ground between math and programming is the requirement of a very good capacity to manipulate abstract concepts in a defined frame of known validity. But it pretty much stops here. In mathematics, you define all your abstracts concepts and frame of validity, in programming, you are given a (very shaky and detailed) frame of validity on which you build up abstract concepts. The ones that are good in approaching the discipline through the study of details to build up stuff that will work on top of it will make the developers. The ones that needs a strong and well defined frame for their work, for it brings a much more powerful ground and enable to reach very high levels of abstraction, will feel more comfortable on mathematics. No wonder why those that can combines both of those approaches can yield stunning results.

by murloc 15y ago

But he writes coffeescript so unlike you he's a "top programmer". except for times when he writes javascript which probably would be when hes drunk or for whatever reasons his IQ has dropped.

tjholowaychuk 15y ago

99% of the popular people out there are just above average enough to make useful projects for those lesser experienced. Most truly talented people are not very well known, they're busy hacking on v8, the kernel etc. Tools for average programming just get more of a spotlight. Is Express complex? no, people just use it, is coffeescript complex? no, is boostrap complex? no..

danso 15y ago
That sounds like a really accurate statistic. So what's your metric for this? Besides the obvious law that low-level code is the only grounds for elite coding, I mean.
- murloc 15y ago
  Easy, he hand picked a 100 people of the JS community (including him) and then decided that hes the only competent programmer amongst them.
  - tjholowaychuk 15y ago
    umm no haha, I'm certainly amongst the average. Trust me writing parsers is very trivial, I've written many. Thinking you're a good programmer is perhaps the most naive thing you can do
    - murloc 15y ago
      I know its trivial once demystified specially using parser generators. But language design isn't though. Anyways i think your a pretty decent programmer.
      - tjholowaychuk 15y ago
        sure it is, take a few features from ruby, a few from python, add yaml and there you have it, coffeescript.
        murloc 15y ago
        What do you think about node? Does it fall in your category of above-average people building tools for the average programmer?
        tjholowaychuk 15y ago
        they're certainly above average but even Ryan himself is humble enough to admit he's not amazing, I dont recall what his exact words were. I think it was on google+, he was talking about how he works with such brilliant people (which are lesser known), but yeah overall node's popularity is largely because it attracts more average people to the scene, vs things like erlang or haskell which are fantastic but attract a lot less attention. This is also why I dont do conferences, I dont want to be known for going around promoting things (like crock), sure I'll blog about features added once and a while but other than that I want the projects to speak for themselves. Eventually if I can gain enough knowledge then sure being well known is neat since you can leverage it to hopefully expose better projects, but there's no end to what you can learn in this industry.
        murloc 15y ago
        Well said.
    - iso8859-1 15y ago
      Parsing: the solved problem that isn't: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2327313 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2327313
murloc 15y ago
Like anything else in life there is front facing people that are generally good at marketing and would use other people's hard work to build technically inferior stuff on and be famous for. Not necessary a bad thing. The truly talented most of the time choose to go unnoticed. And there is always trolls like you who I don't know how they find the time to ship code ;p
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
strait 15y ago
Perhaps you are being too hard on yourself. The majority (more than half) of the well known programmers truly are "superstars". It's all very subjective, though. Where is the standard for complexity or even cleverness? How is it different than simply being esoteric. Maybe I am personally fascinated with regular expressions and after much study, can belt out a half page of parse and extract 'magic' that would make the uninitiated shake their head and crown me a genius. But to me, it's simply assembling larger ideas from smaller ideas. Personally, I would say that a truly talented programmer is simply someone who is very capable in mathematics and can produce a working and extendable program in a reasonable amount of time, that does something new and useful. This criteria alone leaves a ton of people out, you know!
- murloc 15y ago
  I think it has already been proven that there is no obvious correlation between being capable in mathematics and being a talented programmer. Thats so 1950's
  - strait 15y ago
    Not a direct coorelation, but there is certainly a dependence on being capable in mathematics. A math wizard does not make a good programmer, but one cannot be hopelessly average in math and be a talented programmer.
    - iso8859-1 15y ago
      Average of what? I'd bet 80% of 40-year-olds wouldn't be able to pass a high school level maths exam.
    - valisystem 15y ago
      Actually it really depends on what math skills you talk about. Is it really the material you are taught and can apply to software that brings a lot ? The ability to solve problems ? The culture of correctness ? The common ground between math and programming is the requirement of a very good capacity to manipulate abstract concepts in a defined frame of known validity. But it pretty much stops here. In mathematics, you define all your abstracts concepts and frame of validity, in programming, you are given a (very shaky and detailed) frame of validity on which you build up abstract concepts. The ones that are good in approaching the discipline through the study of details to build up stuff that will work on top of it will make the developers. The ones that needs a strong and well defined frame for their work, for it brings a much more powerful ground and enable to reach very high levels of abstraction, will feel more comfortable on mathematics. No wonder why those that can combines both of those approaches can yield stunning results.