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https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/covid-positive-fugitive-anthony-karam-knocks-back-offer-of-hotel-quarantine-c-3753227 https://7news.com.au/lifes

https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/covid-positive-fugitive-anthony-karam-knocks-back-offer-of-hotel-quarantine-c-3753227 https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/covid-positi...

_carbyau_ 4y ago
> statewide man hunts for people who sneezed in lifts that they were the only one in This is why we can't have a reasoned discussion. Use of hyperbole to replace actual good reasons. "statewide manhunt" is actually more like a missing persons notice. "sneezing" is actually having COVID. "in lifts that they were the only one in" is actually leaving mandated quarantine to go spread COVID amongst a non-vaccinated society desperately trying to stop exactly that. This is a glorified missing person's notice for someone who was being a dick. At the time, not many people were moving about and many had not much to do so yeah, a lot of people may have seen this news item in some form. But it wasn't a statewide manhunt. EDIT: and instead of reasoned response. A downvote.
- rfd4sgmk8u 4y ago
  The fact that you can't see such measures as being draconian is kinda the point of this thread. The way that the heavy handed nature of the Australian government approach seems normalized to your average Australian is precisely the normalization of authoritarianism being protested!
  - throwawayxxcr 4y ago
    Here's a summary of US states' quarantine and isolation statutes (since, to many Australians "freedom" means whatever the US does): https://www.ncsl.org/research/health/state-quarantine-and-isolation-statutes.aspx https://www.ncsl.org/research/health/state-quarantine-and-is... Have a look at "freedom-loving" red states like Florida, Texas, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Mississippi, Georgia, Arkansas and Alabama. All seem to be quite "draconian" when it comes to quarantine That eliminates the US. Maybe there's some other country that doesn't have "draconian" quarantine measures?
    - strangeattractr 4y ago
      I'm genuinely confused by your point. Are you saying that because other countries have quarantine restrictions, that makes their pandemic approach equivalently restrictive as Australia was? Victoria spent over 250 days in lockdown between March 2020 and October 2021. We had curfews at 6pm for weeks and were allowed out of the house for 1 hour a day and not beyond 5km of our houses. Are you seriously asserting that if the US enacted these restrictions, I would be on here professing that these were the pinnacle of freedom? What I will remark is that US citizens have certain constitutional protections which we do not that in theory inhibit their government's ability to enact restrictions like these i.e. "freedom of movement".
      - _carbyau_ 4y ago
        6pm curfew? Did Sydney do that? Melbourne didn't. The rest seems about right. But having seen what Italy was going through - lockdowns with COVID still spreading and hospitals overloaded with the dying. I didn't want that for us. The "freedom of COVID movement" people were cursed many times - they kept the lockdown running for longer because they couldn't see beyond themselves. They were the cause of the curfews because they tried to use cover of darkness.
        TapWaterBandit 4y ago
      - throwawayxxcr 4y ago
        We were talking about the "lift sneeze man" violating quarantine, and whether it was "draconian" or not for the authorities to pursue him. I pointed out, by way of the US, that authorities pursuing someone who violated a quarantine order is not uniquely Australian nor particularly draconian. We were not discussing the merits, or lack thereof, of lockdowns. Let's not shift the goalposts. But FYI: Here's a list of lockdowns in response to Covid worldwide, including the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_lockdowns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_lockdowns
  - _carbyau_ 4y ago
    ... Not sure where in my post I comment on authoritarianism. I was criticising an absurdly skewed take compared to the source provided. But sure. Lets go into this. Part 1. Authoritarianism. I don't like it. I do see the Australian government getting worse with it. And there is very little I could do to stop it other than vote right wing nutters out of parliament. Part 2. heavy handed approach to COVID I agree with it - even in hindsight. Society had no vaccine. No RAT. Awkward PCR testing process with delays. No real defense. The ONLY thing that we could do was to halt the spread until we could get a vaccine. As demonstrated by "elevator sneeze man", you can't trust the populace at large not to spread it. And there were fuckups. Apart from "elevator sneeze man", the airport quarantine bungle anyone? These fuckups should be investigated in their own right. But it largely worked. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries USA 100 526 312 cases, 1 105 029 deaths Australia 10 651 218 cases, 16 119 deaths Right now, Australia has ~10% of the number of cases as the US. Which is fair because we're roughly 10% the population size and now we're vaccinated COVID has been allowed to roam. Australia has ~1.5% of the number of COVID deaths as the US. Which is down to being vaccinated BEFORE we let COVID roam. I like my parents. I like the parents of many of my friends. At least some of them would have died due to COVID if it had been let to run rampant before we got a vaccine. Conclusion So yeah, I was happy to live through the Melbourne lockdown. As traumatic as it was, it was better than the alternative. But ScoMo should be friggin' nailed for his "multiple ministries" bullshit.
    - justinclift 4y ago
      As a data point, I'm in Melbourne too and agree with your take on both parts. :)
      - TapWaterBandit 4y ago
        https://twitter.com/BrendanEich/status/1598202863414497281/photo/1 https://twitter.com/BrendanEich/status/1598202863414497281/p... The hypocrisy is so obvious to anyone not blinded by fear and partisan politics.
        4y ago
Closi 4y ago
Lol, well that story is significantly different to a manhunt because someone sneezed in a lift. It’s the story of someone who was sick and legally ordered to quarantine, breaking that quarantine which authorities then wanted to track down. He was spotted on CCTV in a lift. You can argue the real story is ‘totalitarian’ too if you like, but that doesn’t make the original statement either false or at best a very misleading summary.
- strangeattractr 4y ago
  Multiple police were out looking for him for days, they appealed to the public for info about his whereabouts. His face and name were plastered all over national media. I live in a different state and this guy was all anyone could talk about. People were desperate for him to be caught. If you saw this man, you were supposed to call the emergency services. For context, I have never seen a murderer or armed robbery command this level of attention.
  - anakaine 4y ago
    I've got to be honest here mate, your point of view is skewed. This guy was being g tracked down because he was a quarantine dodger during a time when everyone was trying hard to contain the virus so it didn't break out and kill people. The only banned Japanese porn is the kiddy stuff, but even then the law is around any kiddy porn stuff, filmed, animated, drawn, or otherwise. The backdooring of security was discussed at large in the media, and to the best of anyone's knowledge hasn't even attempted to be implemented. This particular point is quite shit and we all should be up in arms about it, but Joe Average tunes out when it gets any more technical than their Ladbrokes multi on the weekend.
    - strangeattractr 4y ago
      > This guy was being g tracked down because he was a quarantine dodger during a time when everyone was trying hard to contain the virus so it didn't break out and kill people. Are you capable of understanding nuance. Do you sincerely think my complaint is that a man was punished for breaking quarantine laws? My critique was of the sum total of the restrictions and the hysterical reaction of the public. > The only banned Japanese porn is the kiddy stuff, but even then the law is around any kiddy porn stuff, filmed, animated, drawn, or otherwise. Just simply false, all it requires is a google search [1]. The border force has blocked the import of any 18+ material from Japan. This ban probably affects less than a thousand Australians, but I included it to give people a taste of the Australian style of governance. Grant sweeping powers to enforcers and hope they don't abuse them. > The backdooring of security was discussed at large in the media, One particular bill in 2018 received attention, mostly from international media and orgs. This bill [1] passed last year and gave the AFP further ability to backdoor encryption as well as the power to modify your data and impersonate you. There were minor mentions prior to it being tabled. The day it was passed in parliament there wasn't an article about it on any major news provider. Most people are unaware this even happened. > and to the best of anyone's knowledge hasn't even attempted to be implemented Do you get much insight into what the AFP, ASIO and ASIS are working on usually? Yes, I'm sure that they make it public knowledge that they've implemented this. That wouldn't defeat the intended purpose at all. Can I clarify, they sought these powers just to have them they don't actually want to use them? And it's my viewpoint that's skewed? [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/xgz8md/japanese-hentai-is-now-banned-in-australia https://www.vice.com/en/article/xgz8md/japanese-hentai-is-no... [2] https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/about-us/our-portfolios/national-security/lawful-access-telecommunications/surveillance-legislation-amendment-identify-and-disrupt-act-2021 https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/about-us/our-portfolios/natio...
throwawayxxcr 4y ago
He seems to have violated a quarantine order at a time when Covid was under control. There are no countries in the world, including "bastions of freedom" that allow infectious public health risks to willfully violate quarantine, BTW: one side-effect of the quarantine travel restrictions was that people overseas saw Australia as being in some sort of draconian lockdown, when, in fact, life was almost totally normal for most of the pandemic because of travel restrictions and qurantine (outside of Melbourne and parts of Sydney in 2021). And many Australians (especially those without overseas ties) assumed that life was "normal" for the rest of the world, when there was, in fact suffering and death, in addition to restrictions.
- SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
  I don’t know if you justifying the event with “well, he had Covid!” Is really defense you might’ve thought it was.
  - throwawayxxcr 4y ago
    Considering that life was normal for most of the country, the virus was contained until vaccines arrived, and the economy was booming, someone violating quarantine was a big deal.
    - SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
      I’m sorry, my satire detector was broken. Recalibrated it with and the economy was booming.
      - strangeattractr 4y ago
        They surely meant the booming of rubber bullets and riot shields. Victoria boomed like never before.
        throwawayxxcr 4y ago
        IT salaries have gone through the roof, the economy grew by 3.9% over 2021-22. This is an objectively true statement.

https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/covid-positive-fugitive-anthony-karam-knocks-back-offer-of-hotel-quarantine-c-3753227 https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/covid-positi...

_carbyau_ 4y ago

> statewide man hunts for people who sneezed in lifts that they were the only one in This is why we can't have a reasoned discussion. Use of hyperbole to replace actual good reasons. "statewide manhunt" is actually more like a missing persons notice. "sneezing" is actually having COVID. "in lifts that they were the only one in" is actually leaving mandated quarantine to go spread COVID amongst a non-vaccinated society desperately trying to stop exactly that. This is a glorified missing person's notice for someone who was being a dick. At the time, not many people were moving about and many had not much to do so yeah, a lot of people may have seen this news item in some form. But it wasn't a statewide manhunt. EDIT: and instead of reasoned response. A downvote.

rfd4sgmk8u 4y ago
The fact that you can't see such measures as being draconian is kinda the point of this thread. The way that the heavy handed nature of the Australian government approach seems normalized to your average Australian is precisely the normalization of authoritarianism being protested!
- throwawayxxcr 4y ago
  Here's a summary of US states' quarantine and isolation statutes (since, to many Australians "freedom" means whatever the US does): https://www.ncsl.org/research/health/state-quarantine-and-isolation-statutes.aspx https://www.ncsl.org/research/health/state-quarantine-and-is... Have a look at "freedom-loving" red states like Florida, Texas, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Mississippi, Georgia, Arkansas and Alabama. All seem to be quite "draconian" when it comes to quarantine That eliminates the US. Maybe there's some other country that doesn't have "draconian" quarantine measures?
  - strangeattractr 4y ago
    I'm genuinely confused by your point. Are you saying that because other countries have quarantine restrictions, that makes their pandemic approach equivalently restrictive as Australia was? Victoria spent over 250 days in lockdown between March 2020 and October 2021. We had curfews at 6pm for weeks and were allowed out of the house for 1 hour a day and not beyond 5km of our houses. Are you seriously asserting that if the US enacted these restrictions, I would be on here professing that these were the pinnacle of freedom? What I will remark is that US citizens have certain constitutional protections which we do not that in theory inhibit their government's ability to enact restrictions like these i.e. "freedom of movement".
    - _carbyau_ 4y ago
      6pm curfew? Did Sydney do that? Melbourne didn't. The rest seems about right. But having seen what Italy was going through - lockdowns with COVID still spreading and hospitals overloaded with the dying. I didn't want that for us. The "freedom of COVID movement" people were cursed many times - they kept the lockdown running for longer because they couldn't see beyond themselves. They were the cause of the curfews because they tried to use cover of darkness.
      - TapWaterBandit 4y ago
    - throwawayxxcr 4y ago
      We were talking about the "lift sneeze man" violating quarantine, and whether it was "draconian" or not for the authorities to pursue him. I pointed out, by way of the US, that authorities pursuing someone who violated a quarantine order is not uniquely Australian nor particularly draconian. We were not discussing the merits, or lack thereof, of lockdowns. Let's not shift the goalposts. But FYI: Here's a list of lockdowns in response to Covid worldwide, including the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_lockdowns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_lockdowns
- _carbyau_ 4y ago
  ... Not sure where in my post I comment on authoritarianism. I was criticising an absurdly skewed take compared to the source provided. But sure. Lets go into this. Part 1. Authoritarianism. I don't like it. I do see the Australian government getting worse with it. And there is very little I could do to stop it other than vote right wing nutters out of parliament. Part 2. heavy handed approach to COVID I agree with it - even in hindsight. Society had no vaccine. No RAT. Awkward PCR testing process with delays. No real defense. The ONLY thing that we could do was to halt the spread until we could get a vaccine. As demonstrated by "elevator sneeze man", you can't trust the populace at large not to spread it. And there were fuckups. Apart from "elevator sneeze man", the airport quarantine bungle anyone? These fuckups should be investigated in their own right. But it largely worked. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries USA 100 526 312 cases, 1 105 029 deaths Australia 10 651 218 cases, 16 119 deaths Right now, Australia has ~10% of the number of cases as the US. Which is fair because we're roughly 10% the population size and now we're vaccinated COVID has been allowed to roam. Australia has ~1.5% of the number of COVID deaths as the US. Which is down to being vaccinated BEFORE we let COVID roam. I like my parents. I like the parents of many of my friends. At least some of them would have died due to COVID if it had been let to run rampant before we got a vaccine. Conclusion So yeah, I was happy to live through the Melbourne lockdown. As traumatic as it was, it was better than the alternative. But ScoMo should be friggin' nailed for his "multiple ministries" bullshit.
  - justinclift 4y ago
    As a data point, I'm in Melbourne too and agree with your take on both parts. :)
    - TapWaterBandit 4y ago
      https://twitter.com/BrendanEich/status/1598202863414497281/photo/1 https://twitter.com/BrendanEich/status/1598202863414497281/p... The hypocrisy is so obvious to anyone not blinded by fear and partisan politics.
      - 4y ago

Closi 4y ago

Lol, well that story is significantly different to a manhunt because someone sneezed in a lift. It’s the story of someone who was sick and legally ordered to quarantine, breaking that quarantine which authorities then wanted to track down. He was spotted on CCTV in a lift. You can argue the real story is ‘totalitarian’ too if you like, but that doesn’t make the original statement either false or at best a very misleading summary.

strangeattractr 4y ago
Multiple police were out looking for him for days, they appealed to the public for info about his whereabouts. His face and name were plastered all over national media. I live in a different state and this guy was all anyone could talk about. People were desperate for him to be caught. If you saw this man, you were supposed to call the emergency services. For context, I have never seen a murderer or armed robbery command this level of attention.
- anakaine 4y ago
  I've got to be honest here mate, your point of view is skewed. This guy was being g tracked down because he was a quarantine dodger during a time when everyone was trying hard to contain the virus so it didn't break out and kill people. The only banned Japanese porn is the kiddy stuff, but even then the law is around any kiddy porn stuff, filmed, animated, drawn, or otherwise. The backdooring of security was discussed at large in the media, and to the best of anyone's knowledge hasn't even attempted to be implemented. This particular point is quite shit and we all should be up in arms about it, but Joe Average tunes out when it gets any more technical than their Ladbrokes multi on the weekend.
  - strangeattractr 4y ago
    > This guy was being g tracked down because he was a quarantine dodger during a time when everyone was trying hard to contain the virus so it didn't break out and kill people. Are you capable of understanding nuance. Do you sincerely think my complaint is that a man was punished for breaking quarantine laws? My critique was of the sum total of the restrictions and the hysterical reaction of the public. > The only banned Japanese porn is the kiddy stuff, but even then the law is around any kiddy porn stuff, filmed, animated, drawn, or otherwise. Just simply false, all it requires is a google search [1]. The border force has blocked the import of any 18+ material from Japan. This ban probably affects less than a thousand Australians, but I included it to give people a taste of the Australian style of governance. Grant sweeping powers to enforcers and hope they don't abuse them. > The backdooring of security was discussed at large in the media, One particular bill in 2018 received attention, mostly from international media and orgs. This bill [1] passed last year and gave the AFP further ability to backdoor encryption as well as the power to modify your data and impersonate you. There were minor mentions prior to it being tabled. The day it was passed in parliament there wasn't an article about it on any major news provider. Most people are unaware this even happened. > and to the best of anyone's knowledge hasn't even attempted to be implemented Do you get much insight into what the AFP, ASIO and ASIS are working on usually? Yes, I'm sure that they make it public knowledge that they've implemented this. That wouldn't defeat the intended purpose at all. Can I clarify, they sought these powers just to have them they don't actually want to use them? And it's my viewpoint that's skewed? [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/xgz8md/japanese-hentai-is-now-banned-in-australia https://www.vice.com/en/article/xgz8md/japanese-hentai-is-no... [2] https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/about-us/our-portfolios/national-security/lawful-access-telecommunications/surveillance-legislation-amendment-identify-and-disrupt-act-2021 https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/about-us/our-portfolios/natio...

throwawayxxcr 4y ago

He seems to have violated a quarantine order at a time when Covid was under control. There are no countries in the world, including "bastions of freedom" that allow infectious public health risks to willfully violate quarantine, BTW: one side-effect of the quarantine travel restrictions was that people overseas saw Australia as being in some sort of draconian lockdown, when, in fact, life was almost totally normal for most of the pandemic because of travel restrictions and qurantine (outside of Melbourne and parts of Sydney in 2021). And many Australians (especially those without overseas ties) assumed that life was "normal" for the rest of the world, when there was, in fact suffering and death, in addition to restrictions.

SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
I don’t know if you justifying the event with “well, he had Covid!” Is really defense you might’ve thought it was.
- throwawayxxcr 4y ago
  Considering that life was normal for most of the country, the virus was contained until vaccines arrived, and the economy was booming, someone violating quarantine was a big deal.
  - SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
    I’m sorry, my satire detector was broken. Recalibrated it with and the economy was booming.
    - strangeattractr 4y ago
      They surely meant the booming of rubber bullets and riot shields. Victoria boomed like never before.
      - throwawayxxcr 4y ago
        IT salaries have gone through the roof, the economy grew by 3.9% over 2021-22. This is an objectively true statement.