7 ms·

Most of the comments here are ignoring the difference between regular old shoplifting and the trend driving the increase discussed in the article, which they're

by axutio 4y ago

Most of the comments here are ignoring the difference between regular old shoplifting and the trend driving the increase discussed in the article, which they're referring to as "organized retail crime". I think it's very fair to have differing attitudes/moral thresholds for an impoverished mother shoplifting a week's worth of baby formula versus "a couple in Alabama [which] pled guilty to shifting $300,000-worth of stolen baby formula on eBay". My reading of the article suggests that the trend discussed is a result of the latter, which is more recent and problematic, and not the former. Comments here discussing the morality of crime or a desire for policy change are missing this distinction.

PragmaticPulp 4y ago
> I think it's very fair to have differing attitudes/moral thresholds for an impoverished mother shoplifting a week's worth of baby formula versus "a couple in Alabama [which] pled guilty to shifting $300,000-worth of stolen baby formula on eBay". I’ve also noticed a weird tendency to downplay theft lately, either through projecting a theoretical moral justification on to the shoplifter or by insinuating that retail stores are evil corporations and therefore deserve no sympathy. Knowing some people who work in retail, the impact of rampant theft (organized or random) is really quite unsettling on the people who have to be around it. Retail store policies are very much about not interfering with the thieves, but it’s quite upsetting when you realize you’re in an environment where the law doesn’t really mean anything and consequences basically don’t exist for breaking the law. The few people I know in retail (including retail management) are looking to get out ASAP because it just feels so vaguely unsafe and, worse yet, large swaths of the public seem to thing the thieves are the good guys and the retail employees are the bad ones because they’re associated with a corporation.
- marricks 4y ago
  - capitalsigma 4y ago
    < 7% of Americans work in retail: https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2020/09/profile-of-the-retail-workforce.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2020/09/profile-of-th...
- ryandrake 4y ago
  > I’ve also noticed a weird tendency to downplay theft lately, either through projecting a theoretical moral justification on to the shoplifter or by insinuating that retail stores are evil corporations and therefore deserve no sympathy. Let me try to convince you without defending the morality of the shoplifter or declaring corporations evil. 1. On the totem pole of crimes, petty shoplifting (without violence) is pretty close to the bottom when it comes to harm done the public. Jaywalking and smoking weed are lower. 2. These corporations that are being robbed already build shrinkage into their budgets. $300k of baby food is nothing to Walmart, a rounding error, and I doubt you can even see it in their bottom line. Even a smaller shop is not going to go out of business if someone walks out with all their toothpaste. It’s not analogous to stealing from an individual. 3. There are a limited number of police and I’d rather them be out there deterring violent and serious crime than protecting the inventory of companies. When every rapist, murderer, white collar fraudster, and drunk driver is behind bars, and the police have nothing left to do, then sure, go bust those dastardly deodorant thieves.
  - exitb 4y ago
    Im sure that Walmart is the gold standard of cost optimization, but it's not universal. Many stores operate on very low margins, so it's easy to imagine that just a few missing cans of baby formula actually brings down the profitability of the entire shelf down to zero.
  - raverbashing 4y ago
    > already build shrinkage into their budgets This is a shortsighted take. This is as stupid as the corporations buying "cyber insurance" not realizing the cases are going up and that prevention and processes are needed. Then comes next year their premiums shoot up. Who would have thought it?! Yes they "build shrinkage" for a forecasted number. If that number goes up and you get people swiping large amounts of products that number becomes meaningless. Then people wonder why did the store close or why a deodorant there costs $10 and is locked behind the counter
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- paul7986 4y ago
  Allowing those to shoplift / turn a blind eye to it is a breakdown of society! What are the good reasons that led to and allows this?
  - sbarre 4y ago
    Letting people starve or be homeless is also a breakdown of society. One is harm to capitalism, property and profit, one is harm to neighbours and fellow humans,. Which one is worse, knowing you can't solve it all?
    - joenot443 4y ago
      Whenever I witness people clearing shelves in NYC, it's never been by someone who appeared homeless. Usually they're wearing clothes as nice as I am, sometimes they've got Airpods in. Let's not make up excuses for criminals, yeah?
      - sbarre 4y ago
        I was speaking broadly, you're citing an anecdote. Not the same thing.
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > I’ve also noticed a weird tendency to downplay theft lately, either through projecting a theoretical moral justification on to the shoplifter or by insinuating that retail stores are evil corporations and therefore deserve no sympathy. Well... it's not that weird. The big chain stores like Walmart ruthlessly exploit their workers to the point of them being forced to apply for food stamps [1], while the owner class makes literally a dozen billions of dollars a year in net profits [2]. Additionally, Walmart is infamous for killing off small businesses around them [3]. So, I don't have much sympathy at all for these corporations and Walmart in particular. With ever more and more people being unable to make a honest living - over half the US has less than 1000$ in savings [4] - it's no surprise that shoplifting for survival is on the rise and at least somewhat accepted in society. Unfortunately, small stores get caught up in the crossfire as they can't afford to bear the rising cost of shoplifting. We need better wages for the 99% and higher taxes for the 1% so that we can get away from forcing people to steal to survive. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/walmart-and-mcdonalds-among-top-employers-of-medicaid-and-food-stamp-beneficiaries.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/walmart-and-mcdonalds-among-... [2] https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/WMT/walmart/net-income https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/WMT/walmart/net-in... [3] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-09-14/radiating-death-how-walmart-displaces-nearby-small-businesses https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-09-14/radiating... [4] https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/19/56percent-of-americans-cant-cover-a-1000-emergency-expense-with-savings.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/19/56percent-of-americans-cant-...
  - prottog 4y ago
    > forcing people to steal to survive I really don't think these people are choosing between stealing and starving.
    - danielheath 4y ago
      According to the [USDA](https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/food-security-in-the-u-s/key-statistics-graphics/#insecure https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/fo...), nearly 10% of americans have missed meals in the past year because they did not have enough food.
- _xnmw 4y ago
  > I’ve also noticed a weird tendency to downplay theft lately. Happened before in history. See the Russian Revolution and the creation of the Soviet Union. Widespread moral justification for theft of private property on class-based "social justice" arguments. It's even happening right here in this HN thread, people justifying stealing.
  - KingMob 4y ago
    Spoiler alert: wage theft is just as big as regular theft, if not more. https://prospect.org/economy/wage-theft-shoplifting-cost-different-deterrents/ https://prospect.org/economy/wage-theft-shoplifting-cost-dif... Think of shoplifting as "inefficient redistribution".
    - joenot443 4y ago
      This is one of those talking points I see progressives use that has just never made sense to me. So we can agree people's time is stolen from them, this is wrong. The part that has never made sense to me is why this means stealing as a whole something that society should encourage? If someone is abused by their parents we would agree they suffered injustice, like people who had their wages skimmed by their employer. We would never tell someone that was abused by their parents it's now okay to abuse their own children, so why would we tell someone who's been stolen from that it's now okay for them to loot bodegas? I sometimes can't tell if I'm being gaslighted, or if people really do look at the world in such broad strokes. When I see my local owner, Sol, have his shop trashed and stuck up by a couple 19yos, I certainly wasn't thinking about how they're probably hardworking minimum wage workers and this is just an 'inefficient redistribution' of wealth which is rightfully theirs. Some people are just dishonorable thieves, there doesn't have to be more to it than that.
      - hotpotamus 4y ago
        If people are just born criminals, then why is this a problem that is arising now? Is it actually a new problem or just media sensationalism? If it's real, then when did it start and can we surmise the reasons for the trend?
- quacked 4y ago
  Few people live in what can reasonably called a "community" any more, so the link between anonymous theft and the erosion of social culture doesn't make sense to everyone. The most remote, homestead-y places will have unattended "stores" where you leave out goods and people come by and leave money in the basket and take what you have. The least remote, most-managed places have security locks on items over $15. It is impossible to run a friendly, neighborhood-run store when any new customer is a potential thief. When theft goes uncontrolled, owners begin to look at their customers with suspicion. Those who don't like theft leave for more peaceful places and are replaced by owners who will tolerate theft with a big insurance policy and force. It is continually astonishing to me that so many "community-focused" people don't realize that unilateral actions of harm inside the community (theft, assault, etc.) have ripple effects that harm the entire community. If you grow up in a region where store owners believe you might be a thief unless they personally know you and you have to constantly worry about protecting what's yours, and I grow up in an area where I'm trusted and respected by business owners and I leave my door unlocked when I go to town, how is equity meaningfully achievable between us?
  - chestervonwinch 4y ago
    > Few people live in what can reasonably called a "community" any more, so the link between anonymous theft and the erosion of social culture doesn't make sense to everyone. What do you think about how this relates to communities shifting almost entirely to the internet?
    - specialist 4y ago
      My wild-assed guess is that social media accelerated the underlying long-term trends. Bowling Alone is a popular book about the decline of "social capital" (community), which is a fair intro to the topic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone IMHO, technological advances begets social upheaval and accelerating inequity are the root causes for the popular usual suspects (broadcast media, cars and suburbia, social media). Orthogonally, since Trumpism, I've been more open minded towards explanations rooted in reactionary populism (revanchism) and white racial animus.
dls2016 4y ago
> Most of the comments here are ignoring the difference between regular old shoplifting and the trend driving the increase discussed in the article, which they're referring to as "organized retail crime". I guess, but conversely I'd argue that organized retail theft has been around pretty much as long as supply chains have existed. That's the mob's bread and butter. The phrase "riding shotgun" is in common use. Perhaps mass shoplifting from the store is a new tactic, but personally I look at this situation and ask, "what has changed"? For one, we've sort of collectively realized how terrible modern jails are (Rikers anyone?). And that's good. A second conclusion I draw is that retail stores have been gutted... walmart-ized... every ounce of efficiency wrung out of them. Have you ever been to one of these massive retail outlets and had trouble finding anyone that works there? A few months ago everyone was clutching pearls about some 150 yd stretch of train track in LA that was continually being robbed... and I can make a wild guess that this was the result of 1) skeleton crews, 2) minimal security on the ground and 3) shipping containers that are running with sub-standard defense mechanisms because they're simply too much work (slows down loading, probably break a lot, etc.). Yes organized crime should be punished, but these companies seem to throw up they're hands and say "Gee golly, we have no idea why $20 million dollars of merchandise watched by 5 overworked, low wage employees and 1 loss prevention officer is such a target! It's a mystery!" I don't hate mega corporations (ok maybe a little), but they definitely have a hand in creating this situation. And it's rarely commented upon when discussing the recent rise in shoplifting. (Edit: I forgot my favorite shoplifting fact... up until recently, reports showed that both shoplifting and wage theft "cost the economy" around $40 billion per year. Comparing prosecution rates of the two crimes is left as an exercise for the reader.)
- taurath 4y ago
  > The phrase "riding shotgun" is in common use. I’m in my 30s and this is the first time I’ve ever actually understood the historical meaning of this
  - jnwatson 4y ago
    "Riding shotgun" was from the stagecoach days. It was the seat next to the driver that acted as a bodyguard.

by axutio 4y ago

PragmaticPulp 4y ago

> I think it's very fair to have differing attitudes/moral thresholds for an impoverished mother shoplifting a week's worth of baby formula versus "a couple in Alabama [which] pled guilty to shifting $300,000-worth of stolen baby formula on eBay". I’ve also noticed a weird tendency to downplay theft lately, either through projecting a theoretical moral justification on to the shoplifter or by insinuating that retail stores are evil corporations and therefore deserve no sympathy. Knowing some people who work in retail, the impact of rampant theft (organized or random) is really quite unsettling on the people who have to be around it. Retail store policies are very much about not interfering with the thieves, but it’s quite upsetting when you realize you’re in an environment where the law doesn’t really mean anything and consequences basically don’t exist for breaking the law. The few people I know in retail (including retail management) are looking to get out ASAP because it just feels so vaguely unsafe and, worse yet, large swaths of the public seem to thing the thieves are the good guys and the retail employees are the bad ones because they’re associated with a corporation.

marricks 4y ago
- capitalsigma 4y ago
  < 7% of Americans work in retail: https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2020/09/profile-of-the-retail-workforce.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2020/09/profile-of-th...
ryandrake 4y ago
> I’ve also noticed a weird tendency to downplay theft lately, either through projecting a theoretical moral justification on to the shoplifter or by insinuating that retail stores are evil corporations and therefore deserve no sympathy. Let me try to convince you without defending the morality of the shoplifter or declaring corporations evil. 1. On the totem pole of crimes, petty shoplifting (without violence) is pretty close to the bottom when it comes to harm done the public. Jaywalking and smoking weed are lower. 2. These corporations that are being robbed already build shrinkage into their budgets. $300k of baby food is nothing to Walmart, a rounding error, and I doubt you can even see it in their bottom line. Even a smaller shop is not going to go out of business if someone walks out with all their toothpaste. It’s not analogous to stealing from an individual. 3. There are a limited number of police and I’d rather them be out there deterring violent and serious crime than protecting the inventory of companies. When every rapist, murderer, white collar fraudster, and drunk driver is behind bars, and the police have nothing left to do, then sure, go bust those dastardly deodorant thieves.
- exitb 4y ago
  Im sure that Walmart is the gold standard of cost optimization, but it's not universal. Many stores operate on very low margins, so it's easy to imagine that just a few missing cans of baby formula actually brings down the profitability of the entire shelf down to zero.
- raverbashing 4y ago
  > already build shrinkage into their budgets This is a shortsighted take. This is as stupid as the corporations buying "cyber insurance" not realizing the cases are going up and that prevention and processes are needed. Then comes next year their premiums shoot up. Who would have thought it?! Yes they "build shrinkage" for a forecasted number. If that number goes up and you get people swiping large amounts of products that number becomes meaningless. Then people wonder why did the store close or why a deodorant there costs $10 and is locked behind the counter
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
paul7986 4y ago
Allowing those to shoplift / turn a blind eye to it is a breakdown of society! What are the good reasons that led to and allows this?
- sbarre 4y ago
  Letting people starve or be homeless is also a breakdown of society. One is harm to capitalism, property and profit, one is harm to neighbours and fellow humans,. Which one is worse, knowing you can't solve it all?
  - joenot443 4y ago
    Whenever I witness people clearing shelves in NYC, it's never been by someone who appeared homeless. Usually they're wearing clothes as nice as I am, sometimes they've got Airpods in. Let's not make up excuses for criminals, yeah?
    - sbarre 4y ago
      I was speaking broadly, you're citing an anecdote. Not the same thing.
mschuster91 4y ago
> I’ve also noticed a weird tendency to downplay theft lately, either through projecting a theoretical moral justification on to the shoplifter or by insinuating that retail stores are evil corporations and therefore deserve no sympathy. Well... it's not that weird. The big chain stores like Walmart ruthlessly exploit their workers to the point of them being forced to apply for food stamps [1], while the owner class makes literally a dozen billions of dollars a year in net profits [2]. Additionally, Walmart is infamous for killing off small businesses around them [3]. So, I don't have much sympathy at all for these corporations and Walmart in particular. With ever more and more people being unable to make a honest living - over half the US has less than 1000$ in savings [4] - it's no surprise that shoplifting for survival is on the rise and at least somewhat accepted in society. Unfortunately, small stores get caught up in the crossfire as they can't afford to bear the rising cost of shoplifting. We need better wages for the 99% and higher taxes for the 1% so that we can get away from forcing people to steal to survive. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/walmart-and-mcdonalds-among-top-employers-of-medicaid-and-food-stamp-beneficiaries.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/walmart-and-mcdonalds-among-... [2] https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/WMT/walmart/net-income https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/WMT/walmart/net-in... [3] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-09-14/radiating-death-how-walmart-displaces-nearby-small-businesses https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-09-14/radiating... [4] https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/19/56percent-of-americans-cant-cover-a-1000-emergency-expense-with-savings.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/19/56percent-of-americans-cant-...
- prottog 4y ago
  > forcing people to steal to survive I really don't think these people are choosing between stealing and starving.
  - danielheath 4y ago
    According to the [USDA](https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/food-security-in-the-u-s/key-statistics-graphics/#insecure https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/fo...), nearly 10% of americans have missed meals in the past year because they did not have enough food.
_xnmw 4y ago
> I’ve also noticed a weird tendency to downplay theft lately. Happened before in history. See the Russian Revolution and the creation of the Soviet Union. Widespread moral justification for theft of private property on class-based "social justice" arguments. It's even happening right here in this HN thread, people justifying stealing.
- KingMob 4y ago
  Spoiler alert: wage theft is just as big as regular theft, if not more. https://prospect.org/economy/wage-theft-shoplifting-cost-different-deterrents/ https://prospect.org/economy/wage-theft-shoplifting-cost-dif... Think of shoplifting as "inefficient redistribution".
  - joenot443 4y ago
    This is one of those talking points I see progressives use that has just never made sense to me. So we can agree people's time is stolen from them, this is wrong. The part that has never made sense to me is why this means stealing as a whole something that society should encourage? If someone is abused by their parents we would agree they suffered injustice, like people who had their wages skimmed by their employer. We would never tell someone that was abused by their parents it's now okay to abuse their own children, so why would we tell someone who's been stolen from that it's now okay for them to loot bodegas? I sometimes can't tell if I'm being gaslighted, or if people really do look at the world in such broad strokes. When I see my local owner, Sol, have his shop trashed and stuck up by a couple 19yos, I certainly wasn't thinking about how they're probably hardworking minimum wage workers and this is just an 'inefficient redistribution' of wealth which is rightfully theirs. Some people are just dishonorable thieves, there doesn't have to be more to it than that.
    - hotpotamus 4y ago
      If people are just born criminals, then why is this a problem that is arising now? Is it actually a new problem or just media sensationalism? If it's real, then when did it start and can we surmise the reasons for the trend?
quacked 4y ago
Few people live in what can reasonably called a "community" any more, so the link between anonymous theft and the erosion of social culture doesn't make sense to everyone. The most remote, homestead-y places will have unattended "stores" where you leave out goods and people come by and leave money in the basket and take what you have. The least remote, most-managed places have security locks on items over $15. It is impossible to run a friendly, neighborhood-run store when any new customer is a potential thief. When theft goes uncontrolled, owners begin to look at their customers with suspicion. Those who don't like theft leave for more peaceful places and are replaced by owners who will tolerate theft with a big insurance policy and force. It is continually astonishing to me that so many "community-focused" people don't realize that unilateral actions of harm inside the community (theft, assault, etc.) have ripple effects that harm the entire community. If you grow up in a region where store owners believe you might be a thief unless they personally know you and you have to constantly worry about protecting what's yours, and I grow up in an area where I'm trusted and respected by business owners and I leave my door unlocked when I go to town, how is equity meaningfully achievable between us?
- chestervonwinch 4y ago
  > Few people live in what can reasonably called a "community" any more, so the link between anonymous theft and the erosion of social culture doesn't make sense to everyone. What do you think about how this relates to communities shifting almost entirely to the internet?
  - specialist 4y ago
    My wild-assed guess is that social media accelerated the underlying long-term trends. Bowling Alone is a popular book about the decline of "social capital" (community), which is a fair intro to the topic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone IMHO, technological advances begets social upheaval and accelerating inequity are the root causes for the popular usual suspects (broadcast media, cars and suburbia, social media). Orthogonally, since Trumpism, I've been more open minded towards explanations rooted in reactionary populism (revanchism) and white racial animus.

dls2016 4y ago

> Most of the comments here are ignoring the difference between regular old shoplifting and the trend driving the increase discussed in the article, which they're referring to as "organized retail crime". I guess, but conversely I'd argue that organized retail theft has been around pretty much as long as supply chains have existed. That's the mob's bread and butter. The phrase "riding shotgun" is in common use. Perhaps mass shoplifting from the store is a new tactic, but personally I look at this situation and ask, "what has changed"? For one, we've sort of collectively realized how terrible modern jails are (Rikers anyone?). And that's good. A second conclusion I draw is that retail stores have been gutted... walmart-ized... every ounce of efficiency wrung out of them. Have you ever been to one of these massive retail outlets and had trouble finding anyone that works there? A few months ago everyone was clutching pearls about some 150 yd stretch of train track in LA that was continually being robbed... and I can make a wild guess that this was the result of 1) skeleton crews, 2) minimal security on the ground and 3) shipping containers that are running with sub-standard defense mechanisms because they're simply too much work (slows down loading, probably break a lot, etc.). Yes organized crime should be punished, but these companies seem to throw up they're hands and say "Gee golly, we have no idea why $20 million dollars of merchandise watched by 5 overworked, low wage employees and 1 loss prevention officer is such a target! It's a mystery!" I don't hate mega corporations (ok maybe a little), but they definitely have a hand in creating this situation. And it's rarely commented upon when discussing the recent rise in shoplifting. (Edit: I forgot my favorite shoplifting fact... up until recently, reports showed that both shoplifting and wage theft "cost the economy" around $40 billion per year. Comparing prosecution rates of the two crimes is left as an exercise for the reader.)

taurath 4y ago
> The phrase "riding shotgun" is in common use. I’m in my 30s and this is the first time I’ve ever actually understood the historical meaning of this
- jnwatson 4y ago
  "Riding shotgun" was from the stagecoach days. It was the seat next to the driver that acted as a bodyguard.