7 ms·

Isn’t it more absurd that no vendors who support Linux make acceptable/comparable hardware?

by tbrock 4y ago

spookie 4y ago
They do make good laptops though? Look, let's not dive into the whole ARM vs x86 thing, it's not their fault.
goethes_kind 4y ago
My lamentation goes well beyond Apple's business practices and I agree with you wholeheartedly. I am hoping Framework + AMD might get close sometime in the next couple of years.
Firmwarrior 4y ago
Man, I'm surprised to hear that's the case I assumed that Macs were mostly preferred because of their UX and relatively high-quality drivers/OS working well with sleep/wake. But if you put linux on there, you're giving all that up Are there not any linux laptops out there with decent build quality and comparable perf/battery life?
- ZiiS 4y ago
  The are not any Windows laptops with comparable perf/battery life either.
- jm4 4y ago
  Agreed. Aside from the processor, there really isn't anything particularly compelling to me about the hardware. Apple's forte is how they integrate the whole hardware package with good software. The build quality is better than most but not especially great. That's not really saying much when you consider the low quality of so many others out there. The keyboards are terrible and I had serious reliability issues with the last couple Macs I used. The battery life probably comes as much from the OS as it does from the hardware. Support is generally acceptable if you pay for AppleCare, although you can sometimes end up waiting a couple weeks for certain repairs. The Asahi team is doing great work, but I can't help but feel like Linux will always be a second class citizen on Apple hardware. I understand it still appeals to some people. It's not for me, though. I'm using a ThinkPad now. It's ok. It's well supported in Linux and Lenovo still provides good support. I think the plan I paid for includes next day repairs. I like that it actually has a variety of ports unlike some of the others that cheap out. It's more repairable than most laptops out there. I will probably get a Framework next time or maybe System76. If I was into MacOS, I'd get a MacBook without a doubt, but I just don't like the OS very much anymore.
  - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
    > Aside from the processor, there really isn't anything particularly compelling to me about the hardware. Yeah, but I find the processor pretty damn compelling. And then the rest of the hardware is—if not remarkable—very solid, so the computer is an enticing package.
    - cesarb 4y ago
      > And then the rest of the hardware is—if not remarkable—very solid, so the computer is an enticing package. A bit offtopic, but I've been a bit annoyed lately that we have to treat the computer as a package. Why should my choice of keyboard (Brazilian ABNT2) and trackpad (I want three physical buttons) restrict my choices of CPU or screen?
      - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
        Has this ever not been the case for small form factor laptops? I think it's mostly just a practical reality of manufacturing. Although I have been really impressed with what Framework is doing!
  - SamuelAdams 4y ago
    > Aside from the processor, there really isn't anything particularly compelling to me about the hardware The trackpad. I've tried a dozen laptops. Thinkpads work great for linux support, as do Dell XPS 13's and the X1 Carbons. But the trackpads on all those pale in comparison to the accuracy of an Apple Trackpad. It's accurate, precise, I can select text anywhere easily, double click works reliably and consistently, and the mouse feels like it is directed exactly where I want. Here's a recent example of a linux distro using libinput: https://old.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/sp3yfe/libinput_is_driving_me_insane/ https://old.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/sp3yfe/libinput_... There are some good suggestions for improvement in the comments, but the fact remains it is always more frustrating to use a trackpad on a non-apple device. Have the state of trackpads changed in the last 6 months for other laptop vendors? If so I'll seriously consider switching but in my experience, even on Windows, those other laptops don't even come close to what Apple offers. Other sources about the linux trackpad problems, I've not tried these changes but allegedly they're supposed to come close to what Apple offers: https://www.gitclear.com/blog/linux_touchpad_update_december_2021 https://www.gitclear.com/blog/linux_touchpad_update_december...
- tpush 4y ago
  > Are there not any linux laptops out there with decent build quality and comparable perf/battery life? None that I've ever seen, especially now compared to M1 Macs.
- foobarian 4y ago
  > of their UX and relatively high-quality drivers/OS working well with sleep/wake. The hardware integration UX is the good part of Macs. The UI UX is inferior to Linux IMO. I'm not referring to any one DE in particular, just the fact that they are so customizable. I wish I could have Windowmaker again on hardware as rock solid as my MBP (and all the integration bits solved, i.e. audio, wi-fi, plug-n-play, multiple monitors, etc.).
- csomar 4y ago
  I am using Dell XPS 17". It is relatively decent and you can have two harddrives (with a RAID setup but I was lazy to hack that). It is certainly not a macbook but I do get 7-10 hours of battery life doing Rust development.
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
There is plenty of other hardware that is comparable. In fact- numerous laptops exceed them in a number of specs. "Isn't it absurd that no vendors who support Linux are making Apple laptops?"
- pas 4y ago
  Please recommend one (or more)! I want to buy a new laptop for years. Last time I got so fed up with the available ones I just bought two second hand laptops for cheap. A small XPS and a big Lenovo (as a backup and for compile heavy development work).
  - purerandomness 4y ago
    Dell XPS 13 with an UHD screen is the closest you can get. Again, the problem is that the hardware and the software are not optimized to work well with each other as much as Mac hardware and MacOS. Dell's fingerprint sensors do not work on Linux due to undocumented specs, and sleep/suspend doesn't work (the laptop will overheat in your backpack)
- halostatue 4y ago
  No one else makes a laptop that has the power / thermal / battery / weight spec combination that Apple does, and none of them are ARM laptops, either. To exceed the Apple M1 / M2 specs with anyone else’s hardware, you need to give up on other specs that matter greatly to those of us who care about things like that.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
    Oh. I forgot that power/thermal/weight is the only spec that matters. The point is that not everyone cares as much about perf/watt and there are plenty of comparable computers which surpass Apple laptops in different areas.
    - Jcowell 4y ago
      > power/thermal/weight is the only spec that matters. For a laptop these specs hold considerable weight.
snvzz 4y ago
There's hope in RISC-V.

Isn’t it more absurd that no vendors who support Linux make acceptable/comparable hardware?

by tbrock 4y ago

Isn’t it more absurd that no vendors who support Linux make acceptable/comparable hardware?

spookie 4y ago

They do make good laptops though? Look, let's not dive into the whole ARM vs x86 thing, it's not their fault.

goethes_kind 4y ago

My lamentation goes well beyond Apple's business practices and I agree with you wholeheartedly. I am hoping Framework + AMD might get close sometime in the next couple of years.

Firmwarrior 4y ago

Man, I'm surprised to hear that's the case I assumed that Macs were mostly preferred because of their UX and relatively high-quality drivers/OS working well with sleep/wake. But if you put linux on there, you're giving all that up Are there not any linux laptops out there with decent build quality and comparable perf/battery life?

ZiiS 4y ago
The are not any Windows laptops with comparable perf/battery life either.
jm4 4y ago
Agreed. Aside from the processor, there really isn't anything particularly compelling to me about the hardware. Apple's forte is how they integrate the whole hardware package with good software. The build quality is better than most but not especially great. That's not really saying much when you consider the low quality of so many others out there. The keyboards are terrible and I had serious reliability issues with the last couple Macs I used. The battery life probably comes as much from the OS as it does from the hardware. Support is generally acceptable if you pay for AppleCare, although you can sometimes end up waiting a couple weeks for certain repairs. The Asahi team is doing great work, but I can't help but feel like Linux will always be a second class citizen on Apple hardware. I understand it still appeals to some people. It's not for me, though. I'm using a ThinkPad now. It's ok. It's well supported in Linux and Lenovo still provides good support. I think the plan I paid for includes next day repairs. I like that it actually has a variety of ports unlike some of the others that cheap out. It's more repairable than most laptops out there. I will probably get a Framework next time or maybe System76. If I was into MacOS, I'd get a MacBook without a doubt, but I just don't like the OS very much anymore.
- Wowfunhappy 4y ago
  > Aside from the processor, there really isn't anything particularly compelling to me about the hardware. Yeah, but I find the processor pretty damn compelling. And then the rest of the hardware is—if not remarkable—very solid, so the computer is an enticing package.
  - cesarb 4y ago
    > And then the rest of the hardware is—if not remarkable—very solid, so the computer is an enticing package. A bit offtopic, but I've been a bit annoyed lately that we have to treat the computer as a package. Why should my choice of keyboard (Brazilian ABNT2) and trackpad (I want three physical buttons) restrict my choices of CPU or screen?
    - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
      Has this ever not been the case for small form factor laptops? I think it's mostly just a practical reality of manufacturing. Although I have been really impressed with what Framework is doing!
- SamuelAdams 4y ago
  > Aside from the processor, there really isn't anything particularly compelling to me about the hardware The trackpad. I've tried a dozen laptops. Thinkpads work great for linux support, as do Dell XPS 13's and the X1 Carbons. But the trackpads on all those pale in comparison to the accuracy of an Apple Trackpad. It's accurate, precise, I can select text anywhere easily, double click works reliably and consistently, and the mouse feels like it is directed exactly where I want. Here's a recent example of a linux distro using libinput: https://old.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/sp3yfe/libinput_is_driving_me_insane/ https://old.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/sp3yfe/libinput_... There are some good suggestions for improvement in the comments, but the fact remains it is always more frustrating to use a trackpad on a non-apple device. Have the state of trackpads changed in the last 6 months for other laptop vendors? If so I'll seriously consider switching but in my experience, even on Windows, those other laptops don't even come close to what Apple offers. Other sources about the linux trackpad problems, I've not tried these changes but allegedly they're supposed to come close to what Apple offers: https://www.gitclear.com/blog/linux_touchpad_update_december_2021 https://www.gitclear.com/blog/linux_touchpad_update_december...
tpush 4y ago
> Are there not any linux laptops out there with decent build quality and comparable perf/battery life? None that I've ever seen, especially now compared to M1 Macs.
foobarian 4y ago
> of their UX and relatively high-quality drivers/OS working well with sleep/wake. The hardware integration UX is the good part of Macs. The UI UX is inferior to Linux IMO. I'm not referring to any one DE in particular, just the fact that they are so customizable. I wish I could have Windowmaker again on hardware as rock solid as my MBP (and all the integration bits solved, i.e. audio, wi-fi, plug-n-play, multiple monitors, etc.).
csomar 4y ago
I am using Dell XPS 17". It is relatively decent and you can have two harddrives (with a RAID setup but I was lazy to hack that). It is certainly not a macbook but I do get 7-10 hours of battery life doing Rust development.

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago

There is plenty of other hardware that is comparable. In fact- numerous laptops exceed them in a number of specs. "Isn't it absurd that no vendors who support Linux are making Apple laptops?"

pas 4y ago
Please recommend one (or more)! I want to buy a new laptop for years. Last time I got so fed up with the available ones I just bought two second hand laptops for cheap. A small XPS and a big Lenovo (as a backup and for compile heavy development work).
- purerandomness 4y ago
  Dell XPS 13 with an UHD screen is the closest you can get. Again, the problem is that the hardware and the software are not optimized to work well with each other as much as Mac hardware and MacOS. Dell's fingerprint sensors do not work on Linux due to undocumented specs, and sleep/suspend doesn't work (the laptop will overheat in your backpack)
halostatue 4y ago
No one else makes a laptop that has the power / thermal / battery / weight spec combination that Apple does, and none of them are ARM laptops, either. To exceed the Apple M1 / M2 specs with anyone else’s hardware, you need to give up on other specs that matter greatly to those of us who care about things like that.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
  Oh. I forgot that power/thermal/weight is the only spec that matters. The point is that not everyone cares as much about perf/watt and there are plenty of comparable computers which surpass Apple laptops in different areas.
  - Jcowell 4y ago
    > power/thermal/weight is the only spec that matters. For a laptop these specs hold considerable weight.

snvzz 4y ago

There's hope in RISC-V.