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I don't think I mentioned the Nazi's, but since you bring it up. "From the prosperity of the empire during the Wilhelmine era (1890-1914), Germany plunged into

by ldar15 15y ago

I don't think I mentioned the Nazi's, but since you bring it up. "From the prosperity of the empire during the Wilhelmine era (1890-1914), Germany plunged into World War I, a war it was to lose and one that spawned many of the economic crises that would destroy the successor Weimar Republic." "During the Hitler era (1933-45), the economy developed a hothouse prosperity, supported with high government subsidies to those sectors that tended to give Germany military power and economic autarky" Economic crises inducing a transition from democracy to plutocracy/fascism, and massive military spending, ending in wars on multiple fronts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Germany I suppose I should also qualify my statement as "dominant states". Since the most common way for small states to be converted to fascism is by the dominant state (i.e. USA) installing fascist/authoritarian governments for them. So I concede that, in general, you may be right.

bluekeybox 15y ago
> Economic crises inducing a transition from democracy to plutocracy/fascism, and massive military spending, ending in wars on multiple fronts. There is one major thing missing from your description; it's so glaring and obvious that I'm amazed that you don't notice it. Nazis rose to power through a populist platform which promoted ethnic/racial hatred and reappropriation of resources from those perceived as morally "corrupt" (the Jewish people) or "too powerful" (the British empire). The Nazi leaders did not come to power first and then all of a sudden decided to exterminate the Jews out of the blue; the they went along with what was a populist sentiment at the time (while adding fuel to the fire by the means of propaganda and mass media which was relatively new at the time), and exploited that precisely that popular, hateful sentiment to guarantee their rise to power. I recommend watching a documentary called "The Goebbels Experiment" for a look from the inside on how it happened. N.B. By going with what you're suggesting, any possible "empire" is fascist, which is blatantly wrong. Plutocracy is bad for various reasons, but plutocracy =/= fascism and genocide. I find it hilarious when people blame plutocracy for causing fascism because it is precisely the supposed "plutocracy" of the time (which was actually a codeword for rich Jews) which drove (indirectly of course) ignorant/resentful Germans in the 1930s to support Hitler and his clique.
- sirclueless 15y ago
  So what you're saying is that after a decimation of their economy, Germans were angry at the economic elite in their country. They then listened to the entertainment industry's pressures to remove their freedom of speech, and other civil rights. Sounds about right.
  - slurgfest 15y ago
    No, a really important feature of fascism is this hate component which keeps being omitted. SOPA sucks, but it isn't driven by an ideology of the nation's renewal through purges of some undesirable class, return to cultural and religious fundamentals of the nation, pressing need to defeat communism and prove the nation's glory with war and occupations... Whether or not the US is moving toward fascism in some way, SOPA is incidental to that - SOPA is nothing more than a big present to certain industries
    - bluekeybox 15y ago
      > a really important feature of fascism is this hate component which keeps being omitted. Yeah -- it's like an elephant in the room and no one among those who are the first to bring up comparisons between the U.S. and fascist states talks about it. I wonder why. > SOPA is nothing more than a big present to certain industries That is the best way to think about it -- it's akin to government pork in a way.
      - ldar15 15y ago
        First of all, a hate component is not a component of fascism, per se. Go look it up.[1] Hate, however, is a very useful motivation for an uninformed populace, and hence it shows up all the time during regime change. The Russian Revolution, for example, involved hate, but resulted in communism. Secondly, are you claiming with a straight face that there is not a systematic demonization of a particular group in this country? We're at the point where its so successful that "concerned citizens" are now pointing the finger [6]. So that elephant of yours. "Homeland" Security. Privatization of Prisons. Government checkpoints at all airports. Corporations are Persons (except when it comes to taxes). Money is Speech. From [1]: Fascists seek to rejuvenate their nation based on commitment to the national community as an organic entity, in which individuals are bound together in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture, and blood. In this case "Homeland" serves the same purpose as "Fatherland". Fascism promotes political violence and war as actions that create national regeneration ref: "Mission Accomplished". Fascists commonly utilize paramilitary organizations for violent attacks on opponents or to overthrow a political system Mayor Bloomberg: "I have my own army in the NYPD". Of particular interest is that if you google that quote on reuters or CNN [2], you wont find it. And yet, here he is on tape: [3]. Can you justify pepper spraying US Citizens in the face [4]? Likewise the paramilitarization of police in the name of stopping the drug war and gangs. These things don't happen over night. But so far, the trend is entirely one way. Attempts to justify them are just part of the process. Don't get hung up on "fascism". There are plenty of authoritarian regimes that don't fit that label but are equally unfortunate. But they all start the same way. [5] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism [2] https://www.google.com/search?gcx=w&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=bloomberg+i+have+my+own+army+in+the+nypd+site%3Acnn.com https://www.google.com/search?gcx=w&sourceid=chrome&... [3] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ULbo9SDQv4&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ULbo9SDQv4&feature=relat... [4] http://www.allfacebook.com/facebook-meme-2-2011-11 http://www.allfacebook.com/facebook-meme-2-2011-11 [5] http://www.endofamericamovie.com/about-film/10-steps-that-close-an-open-society http://www.endofamericamovie.com/about-film/10-steps-that-cl... [6] http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/14/shoshana-hebshi-9-11-flight-detroit http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/14/shoshana-hebshi-...

by ldar15 15y ago

bluekeybox 15y ago

> Economic crises inducing a transition from democracy to plutocracy/fascism, and massive military spending, ending in wars on multiple fronts. There is one major thing missing from your description; it's so glaring and obvious that I'm amazed that you don't notice it. Nazis rose to power through a populist platform which promoted ethnic/racial hatred and reappropriation of resources from those perceived as morally "corrupt" (the Jewish people) or "too powerful" (the British empire). The Nazi leaders did not come to power first and then all of a sudden decided to exterminate the Jews out of the blue; the they went along with what was a populist sentiment at the time (while adding fuel to the fire by the means of propaganda and mass media which was relatively new at the time), and exploited that precisely that popular, hateful sentiment to guarantee their rise to power. I recommend watching a documentary called "The Goebbels Experiment" for a look from the inside on how it happened. N.B. By going with what you're suggesting, any possible "empire" is fascist, which is blatantly wrong. Plutocracy is bad for various reasons, but plutocracy =/= fascism and genocide. I find it hilarious when people blame plutocracy for causing fascism because it is precisely the supposed "plutocracy" of the time (which was actually a codeword for rich Jews) which drove (indirectly of course) ignorant/resentful Germans in the 1930s to support Hitler and his clique.

sirclueless 15y ago
So what you're saying is that after a decimation of their economy, Germans were angry at the economic elite in their country. They then listened to the entertainment industry's pressures to remove their freedom of speech, and other civil rights. Sounds about right.
- slurgfest 15y ago
  No, a really important feature of fascism is this hate component which keeps being omitted. SOPA sucks, but it isn't driven by an ideology of the nation's renewal through purges of some undesirable class, return to cultural and religious fundamentals of the nation, pressing need to defeat communism and prove the nation's glory with war and occupations... Whether or not the US is moving toward fascism in some way, SOPA is incidental to that - SOPA is nothing more than a big present to certain industries
  - bluekeybox 15y ago
    > a really important feature of fascism is this hate component which keeps being omitted. Yeah -- it's like an elephant in the room and no one among those who are the first to bring up comparisons between the U.S. and fascist states talks about it. I wonder why. > SOPA is nothing more than a big present to certain industries That is the best way to think about it -- it's akin to government pork in a way.
    - ldar15 15y ago
      First of all, a hate component is not a component of fascism, per se. Go look it up.[1] Hate, however, is a very useful motivation for an uninformed populace, and hence it shows up all the time during regime change. The Russian Revolution, for example, involved hate, but resulted in communism. Secondly, are you claiming with a straight face that there is not a systematic demonization of a particular group in this country? We're at the point where its so successful that "concerned citizens" are now pointing the finger [6]. So that elephant of yours. "Homeland" Security. Privatization of Prisons. Government checkpoints at all airports. Corporations are Persons (except when it comes to taxes). Money is Speech. From [1]: Fascists seek to rejuvenate their nation based on commitment to the national community as an organic entity, in which individuals are bound together in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture, and blood. In this case "Homeland" serves the same purpose as "Fatherland". Fascism promotes political violence and war as actions that create national regeneration ref: "Mission Accomplished". Fascists commonly utilize paramilitary organizations for violent attacks on opponents or to overthrow a political system Mayor Bloomberg: "I have my own army in the NYPD". Of particular interest is that if you google that quote on reuters or CNN [2], you wont find it. And yet, here he is on tape: [3]. Can you justify pepper spraying US Citizens in the face [4]? Likewise the paramilitarization of police in the name of stopping the drug war and gangs. These things don't happen over night. But so far, the trend is entirely one way. Attempts to justify them are just part of the process. Don't get hung up on "fascism". There are plenty of authoritarian regimes that don't fit that label but are equally unfortunate. But they all start the same way. [5] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism [2] https://www.google.com/search?gcx=w&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=bloomberg+i+have+my+own+army+in+the+nypd+site%3Acnn.com https://www.google.com/search?gcx=w&sourceid=chrome&... [3] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ULbo9SDQv4&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ULbo9SDQv4&feature=relat... [4] http://www.allfacebook.com/facebook-meme-2-2011-11 http://www.allfacebook.com/facebook-meme-2-2011-11 [5] http://www.endofamericamovie.com/about-film/10-steps-that-close-an-open-society http://www.endofamericamovie.com/about-film/10-steps-that-cl... [6] http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/14/shoshana-hebshi-9-11-flight-detroit http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/14/shoshana-hebshi-...